Can I just fold this river? 20-40 live.

[Howard Beale]

At CAZ. This game was sometimes loose, sometimes tight.

BB is an old man. Take it from me, if I call somebody old then they are OLD. He is an average player, not unthinking, but sometimes makes plays from out of nowhere that have little chance of success. He also very much likes to slow-play his big hands.

Overall this game was pretty good but I hardly had a hand to play in the 5 hours before this hand came up. I'm sure that he noticed that I hadn't played a hand in 'forever'.

It's folded to me in the HJ. I look left and see that the CO and the BTN are going to fold. I raise with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Folded to BB who calls.

Flop:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn:

3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

He checks, I bet, he raises and I call.

River is a blank and he bets out. I [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Ballers83]

You're getting more than 7:1 on the river, I'd call all day here. He might be value betting a worse Q or just making a play with a missed draw.

[Nate.]

HB --

Looks like a fold to me. All the obvious reasons. Especially given the player pool at CAZ.

You might have to call a little more for the rest of the session.

--Nate

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting more than 7:1 on the river, I'd call all day here. He might be value betting a worse Q or just making a play with a missed draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was set to scoff at this based on stereotype, but 8 to 1 is enough to justify a call. Afterwards you gently tap the table while politely and softly telling him "nice hand" when he shows you A3. Hopefully he plays you straight from here on out so you can safely fold the river next time.

[HOWMANY]

I think this is a good spot to 3bet for a free showdown.

[Nate.]

HOWMANY --

I'd prefer not to. Hero is just crushed way too often. Also, he has to call a fourbet.

jfk --

I'm inclined to give the guy the pot if this is a rare bluff. Remember that most live players, especially those that fit this profile, get aggressive with draws on the flop, not the turn (if they're going to get aggressive with them).

--Nate

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
HOWMANY --

I'd prefer not to. Hero is just crushed way too often. Also, he has to call a fourbet.

jfk --

I'm inclined to give the guy the pot if this is a rare bluff. Remember that most live players, especially those that fit this profile, get aggressive with draws on the flop, not the turn (if they're going to get aggressive with them).

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't about to 3-bet the turn for the reason you mentioned. That and I 'knew' I was beat at that point.

The main reason I posted this hand was to get a sense of the community. This river situation is pretty common and I want to know, generally speaking, how the forum approaches it:

Always call as a matter of course absent a strong read because you'll win often enough or go with your gut and fold which may lead to people taking shots at you more often because they see that you're capable of folding in this spot?

I hope that was clear.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm inclined to give the guy the pot if this is a rare bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
...and fold which may lead to people taking shots at you more often because they see that you're capable of folding in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first go 'round the old timer has it. That's what he does. However if you fold this spot each time the rest of the table may not know that you know how to read the old timer and may decide that you're a person that can be moved off a hand in this spot. That may or may not work to your advantage or liking but I generally prefer others play in a straight forward manner.

Everyone knows the type you're discussing and they make the most out of thinking players who believe they're nutpeddlers. After a while they begin to represent the nuts more than probability would suggest they should.

I agree with Nate at one level and often make this fold in this spot. Your choice is whether the call here (probably losing) makes the rest of the session easier, not just against this old timer, but against the rest of the observers.

If you don't make a stand here (which is reasonable) you'll eventually have to look him up in a similar spot.

[private joker]

This thread has done a good job of explaining why your adjustments after this hand are more important than what you do in this one.

[OLAT29]

I would call here.

You are getting the right price on your money, and there is some hands you still beat. BTW, do you any history with this player?

Also, by folding river here and some more river-folds you are most likely getting ran over by the other players later in the game.

If you 3-bet turn you fold to cap obviously. It's an option but against a solid player as u describe him, I would give him respect for his turn c/r.