(22s) What would you need to call with here?

[falcone falcone]

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sam, the reason i posted this was because he made what i think is a ridiculous call, and i was having a discussion with your brother about this and he was saying that it might have been +EV for him to call - for the reasons trufloridagator was giving. so that made me think that maybe i have been playing those situations badly (ie. when i'm in the BB's position, calling too tight etc.) so he suggested i post it on STTF and see what kind of responses we get

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Who cares what they should do, play according to what they will do.

edit: shoving 54o here in a $22 is probably as dumb if not dumber then calling it off with the shorty all in in the bbs spot

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Peter, firstly, I would hardly ever expect to see someone call that wide in this spot in a $22. I think that you aren't giving the villain enough credit (don't be results oriented and say, well he did call with 22 so there). I can't get sngpt to compute this exact calculation because the BTN has less than a BB but with slight modifications to stack sizes, I can tell you that according to sngpt this is a clear shove is he's calling 35%. So I'm fairly confident that even if he's calling that wide, which I don't think he is 90% of the time, this a +EV push with any 2 from my spot. I'm risking ~35% of my stack to add 10% and even if I run into a big hand i'm still obviously in good shape to make the money. So the ideal situation here is to have him fold and the short stack win, so i can rape the bubble with my large stack. So with that as my defense, could you explain why you think that this is a terrible shove...am I missing something here? Do you think he's calling wider than I think he is because the BTN is all in for like 90 chips or something? What would you suggest my play is? Fold or complete and check it down?

Secondly, the reason I posted this hand wasn't really about a beat or whether or not we thought my push was good or bad - although I do like to know what you think - but more about what we would be calling with if we were in the BBs position. The consensus seems to be that 22 is terrible, but what is the range here?

Flame away.

edit: Briplay, my reasoning is laid out in the first paragraph of this post.

[Bryn]

I think your shove is close, but probably +EV evan if BB is calling that loose. BBs call is just plain dumb, no two ways about it. Why get all your money in on the bubble when your at best 50/50.

I like the push. There's still almost 1000 chips in the pot that the button hasn't got covered to win straight away, and your only risking 3115. If you complete the side pot will be far larger than the main pot and so you can't expect to get a check down.

If I was BB i'd want a monster, but i'm a nit. He could probably call correctly, if he knew you were pushing ATC, with 66+ AT+.