So who thinks Party was on the ball?

[[Phill]]

Look around you dude, how can you say "They didnt ban online poker, and no one ever will".

They have repeatedly taken the position that online gambling is illegal under the wire act.

Meh, if you really wanted online poker to stay, everyone of you coulda done something about it when it was obvious that Frist and the DoJ was on the war path.

[Wekwekwek]

[ QUOTE ]
Look around you dude, how can you say "They didnt ban online poker, and no one ever will".

They have repeatedly taken the position that online gambling is illegal under the wire act.

Meh, if you really wanted online poker to stay, everyone of you coulda done something about it when it was obvious that Frist and the DoJ was on the war path.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're actually in the process of trying to rule poker as a game of skill, not gambling. That would be a huge win. I agree with you that online gambling is done for the U.S. most likely, but who cares? We are here for poker not gambling. You're crazy if you think they're "banning" online poker.

[[Phill]]

For the record, i dont see how america will recognise poker as a game of skill if the UK sees it as a game of gambling - as shown in an extremely recent test case.

Take any random member of the public, you argue its a skill game, ill argue its a gambling game - i will win almost every time.

AND that was in the UK where we dont have strong religious undertones to everything.

[Wekwekwek]

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For the record, i dont see how america will recognise poker as a game of skill if the UK sees it as a game of gambling - as shown in an extremely recent test case.

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What recent test case would that be, or are you making it up?

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Take any random member of the public, you argue its a skill game, ill argue its a gambling game - i will win almost every time.

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Who cares what the mindless public think, it's about legislation and who has enough swing in court.

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AND that was in the UK where we dont have strong religious undertones to everything.

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That really doesn't have much to do with anything.

Listen, I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just arguing what most people are thinking in the U.S. Frankly I'm surprised no one has stepped up to back up my argument here.

[okietalker]

Wekwekwek:

The UK case was an article in the last week: its on gambling911.com (or something like that)

The legisalators are NOT going to do anything that 80% of their constituents are going to find "morally offensive". So it does matter what the avg joe blow thinks

If you think the religous folks dont matter in American politics you are a fool.

[[Phill]]

The case was related to the Gutshot casino in London. It was mentioned in NVG under a title along the lines of "Its official, poker is not a skill game" - or something like that.

I guess its possible you have to convince one or more judges to get a ruling on it, but im 90% sure here in the UK it was seen in front of a jury.

Either way, experts were called from both sides - and be it judge, jury or executioner, no random person will be disuaded from the default concept that poker is gambling.

If there is a jury of 12, or a panel of 6 judges, and one was a baptist, another a mormon, a couple of jews and some born again christians, its a LOT harder to convince them that poker is a skill over luck game. Here in the uk you can take a similar random selection and the odds of having devoutly religious people is less.

Hey, i suppose im coming off as dickish a lot, but these really are just the facts, served with a side of opinion based commentry.

[stompin]

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The fundamental flaw in your argument is the false dichotomy you offer: Party continues to serve American customers or focuses on other markets.

Why is it necessary to drop American customers in order to focus on other markets? It isn't. In fact, the huge amount of dollars Americans produce could fund all the advertising and man power needed for those other markets.

Party wasn't smart. They clearly reacted too quickly. Leaving the American market so quickly offered them zero benefit and I challenge you to show any benefit.

It may be case that on line poker in America will soon be at risk, but the smart companies are waiting until that outcome is clear before they act.

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There is a benefit; Party is a fishpond right now, very much unlike Stars & FTP. What happened 3 months ago is that a lot of American fish stopped playing (probably just because they had heard that poker was now "illegal"). Sites like party thought that if they weren't gonna have american fish, they might as well have no americans at all and save the quality of their games for the european and emerging markets. If they knew they'd lose the U.S. after a few months regardless of their actions, the path they took was a smart one.


Edit: now watch the flux of non-US players from Stars to Party. It's gonna be fast and furious.

Edit 2: Now is a good time to buy party stocks.

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You're leveling me right?

Just on the small chance that you're not, I have to ask how it's possible that a site so poorly run could be thinking at this level? The list of valid complaints is long and many of them would have been easy to fix, but Party just didn't care.

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You may think party is a poorly run site, but it is far from poorly run business...they are the only ones who understand the market.

The games right now at party are incredibly soft I cant imagine any non American sticking it out with Full Tilt or Pokerstars when they are stacked with the top american players and no fish. Pokerstars / Full tilt have ruined there games, are rapidly losing players, and will have a tough time reversing it until they too drop the american market.

Party doesnt care about regulars, they target the casual players. Thats why theres no rakeback, thats why they have frequent small, easy to clear bonuses, no pros etc

fixing bugs and addressing valid complaints just doesnt make them money. fish do and fish don't care about the things you care about.

[jafeather]

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Meh, if you really wanted online poker to stay, everyone of you coulda done something about it when it was obvious that Frist and the DoJ was on the war path.


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I think many (if not most) of us did whatever we could. Unfortunately, most of what we could do was through the PPA...which obviously was not successful. Truth is we're mostly outnumbered....and that's why we got screwed.

What American poker players are doing now is a different story.

[okietalker]

Also,
I want to add my two cents about Party Pokers "horrible customer service".

I played on Party Poker for over 4 years pretty much on a daily basis and never, not one time, had any problem that was not solved with either one email or one phone call.

The only thing I didnt care for was trying to understand the rep on the phone. But, with a little perserverance, I was always able to get my message across to them and get the situation handled in a satisfactory way.

I reported over 100 "disconnects" to them over the years and they always responded to me in a quick time frame and explained to me what action they took.

Once, I needed to get money from a buddy (or to a buddy, I cant remember) when he was on Empire and I was on Party Poker (or vice versa). And since an inter account transfer was impossible, we sat at a table and literally "chip dumped" the money to each other. Of course the next day we found that both of our accounts had been frozen. My buddy, was scared to death, I told him we should just call them up and tell them the truth. We did, and they unfroze our accounts within minutes of our conversations with them.

So as far as I am concerned Party has been nothing but good to me over the years and I would play ther today if I were allowed.

[MelchyBeau]

[ QUOTE ]
Look around you dude, how can you say "They didnt ban online poker, and no one ever will".

They have repeatedly taken the position that online gambling is illegal under the wire act.

Meh, if you really wanted online poker to stay, everyone of you coulda done something about it when it was obvious that Frist and the DoJ was on the war path.

[/ QUOTE ]

The DOJ has taken the position that online poker violates the wire act, however the courts have stated that the wire act only applies to sports betting.

I don't know what we could have done to prevent Bill Frist from passing this. And for the DOJ, well, they don't think we actually have rights. AG Gonzalez has testified before congress that Americans do not have the right to Habeus Corpus.

Don't think just because party and pacific pulled out that the DOJ won't go after them. They have already subpoenaed banks for information. I would suspect this to do more with prosecuting them under tax evasion than anything else