Phil Ivey Gossip

[fatshaft]

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Devil- if you think due diligence was not taken in this bet you would have a hard time finding a game with an overwhelming majority of the people who actually play nassaus/skins.
Blairs post only applies if at all to a certain select few people who have decided that no rules that pertain to how the real world treats golf apply at all.

"Lack of due diligence" only applies if the participants in the bet think it does. It is pretty obvious that Marc thinks a line has been crossed. How do you reconcile that? He's just bitter?

Blair, I am curious. Since lying is apparently perfectly fine when asked a precise question, is there any line at all that is drawn? For instance what if one person pulls a firearm on another player on the course. How about if he shoots him in the leg on the second hole?
Seems like a good way to gain an edge no?

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I kind of lean this way on the situation. A line was crossed, and despite what others may think, I believe (assuming the story is true, of course) that Ivey would, and should, have trouble finding action in the future. One thing is for sure, people will be less likely to believe him when he talks about his game. In fact, his credibility will be damaged in all things by this, if the story is true.

ONe thing I note - Daniel N. said a couple of times on HSP that people he golfed with kept shooting the 'round of their life' against him. My guess is that, since both Phil and DN started golf at the same time, many of the more experienced golf husters in the poker world have beat them for some pretty good money over the last couple of years, and I suspect that they've been lied to many times. Maybe Phil was just getting some of his money back. If that's the case, maybe we're in a grey area.

Either way, the bet has to be payed off. I think that's a given no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]Judging by the comment attributed to Phil, that the last person to take as much money off him as Marc is now driving a taxi in VEgas, I think the motive was there, and Ivey has done whatever he can to win.

Doing it on the golf course however is a major faux pas.

It is also fair to point out that Marc is a scratch golfer, so taking a mark from there that is fair is as much down to Ivey as it is Marc, and if he kept losing he should have been negotiating gradually more shots per round until he started to break even. This may be slightly different from the DN case where it sounds like he played a lot of different players, so may have been getting shorted on a handicap, but against the same players many times, Ivey should have negotiated a better handicap if he lost every game, to instead up the stakes and claim 10 shots is well below anybody's belt.

[GiantWalleye]

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i have flirted with a career as a professional golfer. practicing 3 hours a day is not anything close to playing for that amount of time per day. however, this is a standard hustle, i guess ivey thought who gives a [censored], i wont beat them by that much because i suck, turns out hes a lier, BTW PHIL IVEY, ILL GOLF YOU FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU CAN IMAGINE, SPECIFICALLY, ALL THE MONEY I OWN, THIS IS AN OPEN CHALLENGE, I WOULD BEAT U IN ANY GAME OF GOLF PERIOD. PWNED.

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I will play this clown in heads up ping pong for everything he owns.

[I.Rowboat]

I don't know if this is helpful, and but here's the Travel + Leisure Golf article alluded to upthread, detailing the $50k/hole match Russ Hamilton played with Kasey Thompson last year:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgo...f-the-hustlers

It may shed a little light on golf wagering at these stakes, and if nothing else, it's a pretty good read in its own right.

[heater]

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However, the Rules do not speak to golf wagering, nor prescribe any penalty for misrepresenting one's handicap in order to gain a competitive edge. Otherwise, as someone else mentioned, amateur golf tournaments would cease to be played on this planet.

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utter bollocks, you don’t even play golf do you?

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Sir, I absolutely guarantee that I've played far more golf on many more courses around the world for far more money than you ever will - although that point is at best tangential to this conversation.

Regarding your post on how indexes are calculated, maintained and all that other remedial rubbish, I can only request that you place my quotes in their proper context. I was responding to apefish's query as to whether they were any inviolable standards in a match "like this" or if it should be considered a no holds barred, anything goes affair. Please re-read that portion of the post in question; I was not in any way comparing the subject of our debate to USGA or R&A sanctioned amateur events, and you know it.

Just to show you that I too can play that game, I'll take one of your quotes out of context:

fatshaft wrote:
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This sounds more like private gambling [which is] nothing like real golf.

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Many thanks, fatshaft, for acceding to my central point. I couldn't have stated it any better.

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Mr Ivey was involved in lying not deception, he was asked a straight question and lied, how is that deception?

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You know, for someone who earlier condescendingly took me to task for needing translation to English from "American English", this last quote makes you look like an unmitigated fool.

Perhaps you require a refresher from Mr. Webster:

lie n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
v. lied, ly·ing (lng), lies
v.intr.
1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. To convey a false image or impression

So, yes, you insufferable Brit, I understand a bit of your native tongue. Brush up on your cognitive skills while I take a nap.

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I don't like you.

[selurah]

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I don't know if this is helpful, and but here's the Travel + Leisure Golf article alluded to upthread, detailing the $50k/hole match Russ Hamilton played with Kasey Thompson last year:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgo...f-the-hustlers

It may shed a little light on golf wagering at these stakes, and if nothing else, it's a pretty good read in its own right.

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Wow this was a great read. Thx for posting it.

[Evigt_Drabbad]

hey its ivey.. the best pokerplayer perhaps, he played in casinos with fake id.. what do u expect? just pay and move along [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[VK_Rick]

For those in the "it's an acceptable form of deception"/"it's their own fault for not performing sufficient due diligence" camp, is there a line that, when crossed (leaving aside shooting someone, etc.), turns it into cheating?

For example, let's say they are using officially sanctioned USGA indexes to calculate strokes and that Ivey forges what appears to be a very legitimate handicap card that shows an index ten strokes higher than his actual index. He shows this card on the first tee to establish the bet. Is this still OK?

[funkymunky]

Next thing you'll hear is Ivey coughs or farts on your downswing.

[NCAces]

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I'll answer for Blair, if that's alright. Here, you've served up a real straw man argument. Phil broke no established law (ie possession of a firearm, assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder) as in your weak-kneed analogy. He deceived to gain an edge in a high-stakes wager, and found himself a compliant sucker. Nothing more, nothing less.

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To the contrary, Phil did 'break the law" ... in a civil context. His was a fraudulent statement, knowingly made, and meant to induce the other party into an agreement to their detriment. While this will never go to court, and while the other post was an extreme example, you are wrong that Phil is not wrong in a legal context.

For example, should Marc not pay, Phil would not be able to collect on the verbal agreement in a court of law in the US. The "agreement" would be null and void due to his fraudulent statement. This is all based on incomplete gossip, but I believe the posters general point can't be dismissed so easily.

NCAces

[selurah]

Presumably people have been hustling Ivey at golf the last couple of years b/c he was new to the high stakes golf scene. Phil probably felt it was his turn to pull the okey doke and get a little pay back against a few of the guys who have hustled him before. I see nothing wrong with it, end of story.

Not sure what the big deal is with this story anyway. A bunch of highstakes gamblers got together. They both thought they were getting the edge on the other. One side was wrong and now they're are crying about it. Goodman and them should pay the money and be a bit more careful next time IMO.

Of course this is all assuming that it is generally accepted that lying/fudging about your playing ability is considered fair game in high stakes gambling on the links. Which after reading the article about Russ Hamilton and reading Blair's post, this seems to be the case.