Big Hands on Big Streets

[SA125]

I'll use a set as an example, but the question is more of a general strategy type asking how the situation is viewed and played by the posters here.

You sit in a 20-40/40-80 game. You don't know anyone and play a few hands. Then this hand comes up.

UTG limps, next players raises, couple of coldcallers, you call in the BB with 77. Nice pot.

Flop Kc Tc 7d. Ch'd to raiser who bets, SB calls, you c/r, he 3 bets, SB calls 2 more.

For arguements sake resist the temptation to say cap the flop. You just call.

Turn bricks. SB ch's, you donk and he raises again. This point is why I posted. Are any of you proceeding using a measure of BB's, say 4-6, as the amount you're willing to lose on the hand?

If not and having no reads, what's your decision making process as far as how much more to pump it? I'm hoping the higher level thinking posters will share more than "I have a set" here. If it's that easy, say so. But you have to be willing to stop sometime. When's that?

Folding sets is as rare as set over set. I'd just like some feedback on what's used to determine how much you'd lose before giving him credit that you're beat.

All responses appreciated.

[99Machine]

So you bet the turn, and raiser raises, what does SB do?

If SB 3 bets it, I'm not folding, I'm just going to call 2 more. If and when it's capped aroudn to me, I call that too.

On the river, if a OESD or flush draw doesn't complete, I'm sitll calling down, and maybe calling down even if it does hit.

If SB isn't in the hand, I raise the turn again, call the 4 bet, check call the river. I don't fold here against unknowns.

Higher sets are very likely, but so is two pair, OESD and flush draws. There are a lot of agressive people out there that'll play this agressively, so there's no way I'm folding this. Especially without any reads.

Anyone else play this different?

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
So you bet the turn, and raiser raises, what does SB do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanted to leave that out of the equation, but the SB isn't 3 betting. It's basically bewteen you and the pf raiser. You can take the SB either folding or he calling 2 cold.

The main question is on the turn when the best hand is a set.

[surfdoc]

Your question is a bit too generic. Against an unknown (live) you will usually be ahead at 4-5 bets, and behind at 6-8 bets depending on the action.

As far as the hand posted, I think the only really reason not to 4 bet the flop and lead the turn is to CR the turn. That action and that board looks a whole lot like SB is on a draw and the raiser has a made hand he wants to protect. This is way too good a checkraising spot to pass up since many sane opponents won't raise 1 pair hands on the turn but will always bet and call down a CR. If you somehow know that the pfr will raise then bet/3bet on the turn is fine but that can't be counted on live.

Another line that can be pretty sweet here if you have a read is to cap up the flop AND checkraise the turn. This will work against aggro opposition who will put you on a flush draw or pair/draw combo that missed on the turn.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Your question is a bit too generic. Against an unknown (live) you will usually be ahead at 4-5 bets, and behind at 6-8 bets depending on the action......................................
many sane opponents won't raise 1 pair hands on the turn but will always bet and call down a CR.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, sounds like you're going at least 4 bets on the turn before you let up. That brings into question the next part of your post.

After he 3 bets your flop c/r, you figure a sane opponent doesn't keep the foot on the gas on the turn with a 1P hand. If you lead/3 bet you call a 4th. If you c/r again and get 3 bet again, isn't that the time to slow down?

After ch/c'ing river and assuming you're beat, you lose 5 BB's with lead/3 bet line and 4 BB's with c/r line. Make sense and 4-5 sound right?

Losing 6 BB's to an unk who raised pf, 3 bet the flop and 3 bet the turn sounds nuts, but maybe I'm wrong.

[drbk2]

I don't think I ever took the line you described with bottom set before. If I donk the turn here, I definitely 3 bet and call a 4th and then give up and check call the river. IF I checkraise two guys on the turn and the preflop raiser 3 bets, then I just call this as well and check call river.

The checkraising two guys on the turn line looks extremely strong and if the preflop raiser 3 bets here, then I would be extremely alarmed and give him credit for a better hand and just call down.

If you donk the turn and get raised, the preflop raiser can still think you have just a King here and can raise your bet with AK or AA here, maybe even KQ. So that would be my reasoning for 3 betting the turn here. If he 4 bets, then he can most likely beat just one pair and you have to give him credit for it. So I would lose either 4 or 5 BB's depending on what action I take on the turn.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I ever took the line you described with bottom set before. If I donk the turn here, I definitely 3 bet and call a 4th and then give up and check call the river. IF I checkraise two guys on the turn and the preflop raiser 3 bets, then I just call this as well and check call river.

The checkraising two guys on the turn line looks extremely strong and if the preflop raiser 3 bets here, then I would be extremely alarmed and give him credit for a better hand and just call down.

If you donk the turn and get raised, the preflop raiser can still think you have just a King here and can raise your bet with AK or AA here, maybe even KQ. So that would be my reasoning for 3 betting the turn here. If he 4 bets, then he can most likely beat just one pair and you have to give him credit for it. So I would lose either 4 or 5 BB's depending on what action I take on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds right to me. Good post.

[Victor]

bet the flop.

[dcb777]

With hands like this I often bet and try to jam the flop. I would 4 bet the flop given the chance and bet the turn. Given the line that you took I would 3 bet the turn and call down if he four bets.

[mikelow]

Take it to three bets on the turn. If four-bet you're done raising and will call down, having lost 7.5 big bets, if it's set over set. It's rare to lose to a bigger set, so you have to know how the SB plays. He could have Ac7c, or KT to keep pumping it. On the turn it's KT or TT? Does he always three bet preflop with KK? What are it's tendencies with TT? So I'm three-betting the turn for sure. So if it goes four bets, I'm concerned about TT and will stop raising.

FWIW, I was once involved in huge 30-60 pot with three sets flopping. And I had the middle set. (I got the suckout on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )