Phil Ivey Gossip

[Pudge714]

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So basically what happened here was that the hustlers got hustled and then cried about it like babies?

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They didn't attempt to hustle Ivey. Taking what you percieve do be a massively +EV waged != hustling.

[Peter McDermott]

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So basically what happened here was that the hustlers got hustled and then cried about it like babies?

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They didn't attempt to hustle Ivey. Taking what you percieve do be a massively +EV waged != hustling.

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Presumably then, by your definition Ivey didn't hustle them either?

[dafulv]

they always said he was the tiger woods of poker

[Flacks]

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For that kind of money you are playing off of an established official HC card. Not that those can't be [censored] with but it's a big step towards legitimacy. If their card reads 83, 88, 85, 92, 82, and they come out and throw up a 74 I am gonna call BS. But at least you have a reference. I do not know the structure of their bet (stroke/match/wolf etc.) but I guarantee you for that kind of bank we are playing it by PGA rules. No improving your lie, mulligan, grounding your club, stroke+distance etc. A developing player will still struggle w/these and bunker shots, up/downhill lies, hardpan, etc. are huge assets to the scratch golfer in these situations of having to give up a lot of strokes. I would love to know the structure of the bets.

You can also adjust after so many holes in cases where an unknown or unestablished HC is at play, but this is stated before tee off.

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Do you think these guys have established handicaps? A golf handicap is nothing but a lie on paper for most people. 95% of the people who do have a handicap have a false one because about 5% of the golfing public actually know and follow the rules.

Professional gamblers more than anyone else are the last to have a handicap.

As far as PGA rules go ( actually it's USGA rules) again you will find less than 5% of the public actually know the rules and you can be damn sure that high stakes gamblers have their own rules. The rules are layed out clearly before you go out and i can guarantee you that they dont resemble the rules that casual golfers play by. The best high stakes golfers are very good at getting even a scratch golfer off of their game by reworking the rules. It is usually more than just giving strokes.

There is almost always a provison if someone completely sandbags and above all else you will never get any action if you pull this stunt just once. Everyone has a good round occasionally but for the numbers the OP put out there Ivey would have had to have Tiger step in and play his ball or the other players had inflated their handicaps and have made a moronic bet. Both of which I doubt especially given the dollar amounts going back and forth.

Just as an example a bet between gamblers may have one guy playing the ball as it lies , no matter where it lies ( no OB etc) while another player in the same group may get to tee it up in the fairway. Whatever it takes to get the proper action. It usually revolves around nullifying the players strength. ( Read the book "Who's your caddy" for some great examples) Do you really think that Doyle plays bunker shots while using his crutch? There are provisions made in order for both him and his competitors to feel like they are getting the best possible chance to make money. It's a gigantic bargaining session before they tee off.

All of that being said, if Phils competiton got smoked that bad they have no one to blame but themselves for not getting a little backround info. I think the whole story is highly suspect.

I watched Phil play a year ago and I don't see this happening unless the other golfers were complete idiots (which I dont beleive) Could he have improved that much in a year? Doubtful even though I know he has friends who are great golfers and coach him.(All of the coaching and money in the world wont hit the ball for you.) Three hours a day for three months is not that much practice in the grand scheme of things. If he followed it up with about 54-72 holes a week then maybe but that would be info that ANYONE playing against him could get by talking to people around town.

On top of all that there probably would have been a provision if he did exactly what was described and the bet would have been reworked after X amount of holes.

[shaniac]

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On top of all that there probably would have been a provision if he did exactly what was described and the bet would have been reworked after X amount of holes.

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One of the issues, as I heard it, was the aggressiveness with which Ivey negotiated the bet, or prop bets in general. I heard something about Sagstrom wanting to quit and settle up after less than 9 holes, realizing (or believing) that Phil had lied to them, but Phil refused and tried to incur a 100K penalty or something (don't know if this has been covered, haven't read the entire thread). Then Sags walked off the course.

I have encountered people like this--who are very aggressive in their prop-betting, and they make it less-than-friendly in the process, knowing that the lust for action will eventually get their acquaintances to make a bad bet.

Edit: Also, it doesn't really matter who was hustling whom, or if someone thought they had an edge...It all sort of depends on the tone of the gambling and the relationships among the players. If it's hardcore competitive gambling, then be as ruthless as you can, and watch your back every step of the way

But if it's supposed to be friendlier-style gambling, there is a certain honor code which dictates all parties involved negotiate a spot that's somewhere near neutral EV, regardless of the stakes. Maybe I've got it wrong, and, in a world of hustlers, there is no honor and no obligation to treat one's opponents fairly. Maybe Ivey didn't do anything wrong, but there seems to be something unpleasant about a certain kind of edge-mongering.

[fungaimike56]

Getting an edge is what it is all about. Maybe Ivey didn't play a round in the preceding months, the truth, and disclosed it while not disclosing the recent amount of practice and lessons. These guys were hungry to take him down and negotiated a bad match. Further, it's likely Ivey played within the bounds of his substantial bankroll while they were above the limits of their own...a recipe for disaster. And great stuff for the gossip forum. Go Phil go.

[shaniac]

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Getting an edge is what it is all about. Maybe Ivey didn't play a round in the preceding months, the truth, and disclosed it while not disclosing the recent amount of practice and lessons. These guys were hungry to take him down and negotiated a bad match. Further, it's likely Ivey played within the bounds of his substantial bankroll while they were above the limits of their own...a recipe for disaster. And great stuff for the gossip forum. Go Phil go.

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Here's the thing...let's say we meet at the WSOP, become friendly, and agree to play tennis together for $5K a set.

You tell me that you were the No. 1 singles player in a high-school, and I state that I am a 3.5-USTA-ish parks player. We agree on a spot to level the match based on that (let's say I get to hit into your doubles court, or you only get one-fault on serve). Then once we start playing you realize I am much better than a 3.5-ish parks player--that the way I am playing indicates I am much better than a 3.5-player could EVER play, even on a great day--I'm maybe a 4.0 or 4.5! You realize that, with the spot you agreed to, based on what you thought was my honest information, you have zero chance of winning. Would you feel cheated based on the way I first represented my skill?

[Richard Tanner]

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Getting an edge is what it is all about. Maybe Ivey didn't play a round in the preceding months, the truth, and disclosed it while not disclosing the recent amount of practice and lessons. These guys were hungry to take him down and negotiated a bad match. Further, it's likely Ivey played within the bounds of his substantial bankroll while they were above the limits of their own...a recipe for disaster. And great stuff for the gossip forum. Go Phil go.

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Here's the thing...let's say we meet at the WSOP, become friendly, and agree to play tennis together for $5K a set.

You tell me that you were the No. 1 singles player in a high-school, and I state that I am a 3.5-USTA-ish parks player. We agree on a spot to level the match based on that (let's say I get to use the doubles court, or you only get one-fault on serve). Then once we start playing you realize I am much better than a 3.5-ish parks player--that the way I am playing indicates I am much better than a 3.5-player could EVER play, even on a great day--I'm maybe a 4.0 or 4.5! You realize that, with the spot you agreed to, based on what you thought was my honest information, you have zero chance of winning. Would you feel cheated based on the way I first represented my skill?

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Also, I know next to nothing about golf betting, but some people here have made it seem as if lying about one's handicapp is grounds for cancelling the bet. Is this an established rule in the majority of situations, or is it just a few guys "house rule".

To equate, in pool, everyone lies about how good they are, it's almost part of the game, certainly not cause for not paying up. Is this the same situation in Golf?

Cody

[shaniac]

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To equate, in pool, everyone lies about how good they are, it's almost part of the game, certainly not cause for not paying up. Is this the same situation in Golf?


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I really don't know (haven't played enough golf), but it seems that people are asserting that it is grounds for not paying up. Again, I think it depends on the context of the gambling and the friendships of the players.

I do think that if someone lies about his handicap, then refuses to renegotiate when you become aware of it, he ain't yo friend.

[birdytime]

Ivey sandbagged them which is looked down upon in golf. Sagstrom realized he was getting sandbagged but still tried to do the right thing and pay what he was down at time, and call uncle. Ivey realizing he could ve doubled the number. Then tried to enforce 100k penalty. If this is all true and really played out like then Ivey is a real doushe.
For those saying you can only get so good in 3 months wtf are you talking about. you may not be able to go from a 8-10 handicap to almost scratch but if you are a 20 handicap 3 months at 3 hours a day will certainly do wonders for that chipping game.