Is poker gambling? - Page 6

Daisydog · #51 01-28-2007, 02:34 AM

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You have a very idealized image of insurance.

Ten people put up money. If a certain something happens, they get more money back. If it doesn't then they lose the money.

Are they playing roulette or buying car insurance?

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You buy insurance on XXX. XXX gets destroyed. The insurnace company pays you to replace your XXX. Do you profit from this?

You put money on black. The ball lands on black. The casino pays you. Do you profit from this?

Confused1 · #52 01-28-2007, 02:51 AM

Is the person that owns the roulette wheel gambling?

If the definition of gambling is 'putting money into an uncertain outcome', then all stocks, all business, almost all investments (real estate, gold, oil) become defined as gambling.

The usage I use is long term expectation. I don't consider puttin money into the S&P 'gambling' because I have every reason to believe that it will show a profit long-term.

Poker is the same way. Every pit game and lottery requires participants to 'gambool'..the participants (the gamblers) play the game trying to BEAT the odds. The casino isn't trying to beat the odds, the odds are working for them. I don't think what they are doing is gambling (they are offering a venue for OTHERS to gamble). There hasn't ever been a craps table or roulette wheel or slot machine used for any significant period of time that's lost money without being cheated. It's as sure an investment as any there is from the casino's view.

A winning poker player is doing much the same thing, if he's doing it right.

HSB · #53 01-28-2007, 03:07 AM

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You have a very idealized image of insurance.

Ten people put up money. If a certain something happens, they get more money back. If it doesn't then they lose the money.

Are they playing roulette or buying car insurance?

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You buy insurance on XXX. XXX gets destroyed. The insurnace company pays you to replace your XXX. Do you profit from this?

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Yes.

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You put money on black. The ball lands on black. The casino pays you. Do you profit from this?

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Yes.

HSB · #54 01-28-2007, 03:11 AM

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Is the person that owns the roulette wheel gambling?

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Yes.

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If the definition of gambling is 'putting money into an uncertain outcome', then all stocks, all business, almost all investments (real estate, gold, oil) become defined as gambling.

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Yes.

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The usage I use is long term expectation. I don't consider puttin money into the S&P 'gambling' because I have every reason to believe that it will show a profit long-term.

Poker is the same way. Every pit game and lottery requires participants to 'gambool'..the participants (the gamblers) play the game trying to BEAT the odds. The casino isn't trying to beat the odds, the odds are working for them. I don't think what they are doing is gambling (they are offering a venue for OTHERS to gamble). There hasn't ever been a craps table or roulette wheel or slot machine used for any significant period of time that's lost money without being cheated. It's as sure an investment as any there is from the casino's view.

A winning poker player is doing much the same thing, if he's doing it right.

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The fact that you have a positive expectation doesn't mean it isn't gambling.

padore · #55 01-28-2007, 11:52 AM

I know you'll all disagree, but poker is definetly NOT gambling. It's a game. The act of staking something on the result of the game, now THAT'S gambling.

True, the excitment of poker comes from the fact that you put up money in the hope of winning more money. Whether you rely on skill, luck or cheating to do this, that's a different matter. You CAN play poker for no money at all. It's just not much fun.

And what about FreeRolls? You don't pay to enter a freeroll, but you can win prize money etc from it. That's not gambling.

What about poker sites where you never deposit. (I know of 1 only, but they do exist). If you win, you can withdraw your winnings. If you lose, well it wasn't your money anyway. Surely that's not gambling.

You can play Bridge for money, but most people only play for fun. Just because Poker has become popularly associated with playing for money does not make Poker gambling. It's just a game.

IcemanDan · #56 01-28-2007, 12:04 PM

A lot of people arguing that poker is not gambling have made good points towards determining that poker is a game and skill, and not luck. IMHO, that does not remove it from under the umbrella of gambling.

If you remove poker from gambling, you place it in a category of actions that, as we usually understand them, are clearly NOT gambling. There is some logic in arguing that many things are based on unknown events in the future, and therefore either they should be called gambling or poker should not.

The definition along the lines of "placing money on uncertain outcomes of events" is clearly not adequate.

The fact of the matter is, almost nothing in life is 100% certain. Can I say with 100% certainty that my employer will never go out of business? Then maybe I'm gambling with my labor every day I go into work. Can I say with 100% certainty that I won't get into a car crash today? Then maybe I'm gambling with my life every time I go drive.

I can see a lot of strength in the argument that investing or running a business is LIKE gambling. But at the heart of buying stock in a company is purchasing actual partial ownership of that company. If that is gambling, then why isn't buying art, or a house, or a car, or baseball cards gambling?

Why? Because they aren't actual bets themselves. Buying Apple stock today is LIKE betting that its value will increase in the future, but it is not exactly that. Playing poker, however IS betting (that you have the best hand, that your opponents will fold, etc), and therefore gambling. Perhaps you can "beat" the game, but winning does not cause the game to not be gambling.

Daisydog · #57 01-28-2007, 01:12 PM

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You buy insurance on XXX. XXX gets destroyed. The insurnace company pays you to replace your XXX. Do you profit from this?

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Yes.

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You would only profit from this if you were to buy insurance on something you don't have an insurable interest in. For example, you buy insurance on someone else's house. Then you would profit if their house gets destroyed. Insurers generally won't let you do this, because it is not considered insurance if you don't have any insrable interest. But, when you purchase insurance on your own house, you only get compensated for your loss. So when you have insurable interest, the outcome of the undetermined event has no net financial impact on you. That's why you are not gambling when you buy insurance.

Insurable interest is at the heart of the legal distinction between insurance and gambling. When there is no insurable interest, it is considered gambling. If there is insurable interest, then it is insurance.

Supreme Court of the United States, 1876 "It is generally agreed that mere wager policies - that is, policies in which the insured party has no interest whatever in the matter insured, but only an interest in loss or destruction - are void, as against public policy."

raju · #58 01-28-2007, 01:48 PM

These posts are usually looking for some one to say: Its ok, poker is not gambling.

Dont think any one can do that for you Jack.
If you like you can try this though:

If i pay $20 to play ten pin bowling im gonna get 1 hour worth of "fun" and then i go home. $20 light

If i pay $20 to play tournement poker i can have anywhere between 2mins and 8+ hours worth of fun and i might get my money back or win a couple of thousand $.Or go home $20 light

They are both games.
In one you`re playing at rolling a ball at some pins **YAWN**
In the other you`re playing at gamboling with tokens.

In one game there`s a possibility you get more than you started with

in the other you get the feeling there is more to life....

indianaV8 · #59 01-28-2007, 04:06 PM

Gambling:

v.intr.
1. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
2. To play a game of chance for stakes.
3. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.
4. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.
n.
1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.
2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

Gambling is almost synonim of a risk.
Poker is gambling, as almost anything in life.
A poker player player does not gamble much more than anyone else (e.g. a nurse).

Skallagrim · #60 01-28-2007, 04:16 PM

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My personal opinion is "gambling" is wagering on future events subject to an element of chance and not under the wagerer's control or influence.

Skallagrim

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Skallagrim

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Hi Skallagrim,

I don't know if you remember me, but we used to have some discussions on the HP board. Glad to see you again and a belated welcome to the board.

Anyway I'd like to know if you and/or the state of N.H. consider parimutuel betting a form of gambling. I believe your answer will rely on the your definitions of "control" and "outcome'. Looking forward to your reply.

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Hi tsearcher, assuming you had the same or similar name at the HP Boards, I think I recall? Havent been there in awhile and cant remember the names of ALL the fun posters.

As to your question, my (and NH's) definition of gambling would include parimutual wagering, and that may be a limitation in my definition because at least some folks put a lot of study and skill into making those wagers. But since you are not helping the horse or dog run any faster, it fits as gambling. NH has parimutual wagering though, as we have licensed dog and horse tracks.

Good to chat w/you again

Skallagrim