Interesting multi-way pot against two top players

[Blindcurve]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with woodguy. This is a bet because these players are presumably aware enough to know that you're checking back total whiffs here and because their limp/calling ranges didn't hit this flop hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I agree about the hand range assumption. What ranges do you have them on? And aren't middle suited connectors in it?

Also, isn't this where a SLAGgy player post-flop makes a lot of chips- by thinking about OP's hands and challenging the OP's continue on a flop like this? They don't know OP had AA one hand previous- OP may look a little laggy.

Just asking,

D.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
And aren't middle suited connectors in it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are in your range, 75% of them just missed in a big way.

Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, isn't this where a SLAGgy player post-flop makes a lot of chips- by thinking about OP's hands and challenging the OP's continue on a flop like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If their balls are that large, then they earned the pot, folding after c-betting isn't the worst thing in the world here.......checking then folding to a turn bet is much worse.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Foucault]

Pre-flop a raise is pretty much mandatory given that I've got position and the best hand (and specifically a hand that plays better with fewer players seeing the pot and shallower effective stacks post-flop). The only reason not to raise would be if I were concerned about getting outplayed if someone decided to play back at me given that I had just raised up some limpers last hand. On the other hand, though, it looks so suspicious to do this twice in a row that I also don't think they'll put me on air. I mean, people are advocating limping AQ here, so if I were just looking to make a play, this clearly is not the best spot for it.

Anyway, woodguy summarized my thinking pretty much exactly. With stacks this deep, good players aren't going to mess around too much out of position on a monotone flop. Some people mentioned pocket pairs and suited connectors as plausible hands for them, and I think suited Aces are possible as well. However, I don't expect either of them to have Ax off-suit (I guess gboro could have AKo, but it's not likely, and gank pretty much never has it). So I'm working under the assumption that unless someone flopped the nuts, my flush outs are clean. KK is also super-unlikely for either of them, so of all the possible pocket pair combos, only six of them realistically made a set on this flop. And as Woodguy pointed out, 75% of suited connectors/Axs combos whiffed this flop as well. So a bet on this flop should be profitable.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP3 (t2410)
Hero (t2660)
Button (t2380)
SB (t1780)
BB (Gboro)/ (t2640)
UTG (t2780)
UTG+1 (t2390)
MP1 (t2960)
MP2 (Gank)/ (t2480)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t20, MP2 (Gank)/ calls t20, MP3 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t140</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB (Gboro)/ calls t120, MP1 folds, MP2 (Gank)/ calls t120, MP3 folds.

Flop: (t470) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Gboro checks, Gank checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t350</font>, Gboro calls t350, Gank folds.

Turn: (t1170) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Gboro bets t650</font>, Hero ?

Gboro left himself exactly 1500 behind after making this bet. I cover him, but barely.

[kurtkatt]

ok i like it, both pf and flop.

Now for turn, remember the assumption you made about good players won´t mess around oop this deep? Use that assumption and fold as fast as you can.

This line is either a oop float (which is good for us but not really probably due to our earlier assumption), some top pair hand (somewhat unlikely, as i doubt he would like to play oop with a hand like kq this deep), flushdraws (Ac x was discarded as a possibility, and if it wasn´t entirily this is a very strange line for that hand no?), ak, sets and made flushes.

As i see it the most probable hands are strong hands played with a line to make you put in more money with a worse hand.

[NoahSD]

Pushing is so tempting with these stacks and a strongish draw... but villain's line isn't a bluff ever (maybe a semibluff.. but I think really rarely. Only hand that makes sense there is like A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q, and I think he probably doesn't lead the turn with that.). So, pushing's out of the question.

So the only real question is if we have odds to draw. Given that none of our outs are clean and that we have barely any implied odds on a club (especially after considering reverse implied odds), we need some pretty tempting odds to call. I don't think 3:1 is good enough here, so I fold.

[gobboboy]

Check on the flop and get to showdown as cheaply as possible. I don't like a bet, because if someone's playing against you they always have you in terrible shape. You get c/r'ed here way too often by a baby flush and then you have to fold. I'd rather check, see a turn and try to play your hand for the value it has (which is a lot of equity at the time). If your hand doesn't have good value, you lose more chips by betting anyway. If they 2/3 bet the turn, call and play some pokah. If a club comes, check it through to induce a bluff. This is a flop I like to play very passively on because betting basically turns your hand into a bluff.

He has a flush on the turn 100% of the time, and it's probably the nuts. Fold.

[uclabruinz]

Agree with gobboboy, check the flop but as played fold the turn.

[MLG]

Interesting turn spot. I think its pretty likely you are up against exactly set/KJ. Id be fairly certain all 12 of your outs are clean, which reduces it to a basic pot odds/implied odds problem. My gut reaction is that when you spike a club you just dont get paid enough to make the call worth it, but soebody who isnt lazy should run some numbers.

[gboro]

first off, lol at two top players. i'm bad, and gank's even worse ; )

well i butchered the [censored] out of this hand. i don't wanna kill the discussion so i'll save my comments for later. nh foucault