What hell is with all the miniraises?

[tannenj]

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people are taking limons advice.

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possibly true. i have many students. just looking at this thread and the angst they cuase proves the power especially the guy who treats min and full raises the same. i would min raise that guy into a coma. BTW DO NOT TRY THIS W/O PROPER INSTRUCTION. YOU WILL GET SLAUGHTERED.

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yeah, that would work great for you.

the first two times.

my post was regarding unknowns.

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hmmm, how would you treat them after the 1st two times?

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after the first two, i'd shove over every subsequent minraise.

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I haven't read past this, but LOL LOL LOL..

I hope you realize that limon pwned you in this thread due to this response..

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wow, i really hope you're not this stupid.

[tannenj]

machine,

i don't get your point. assuming i am oop and decided to continuation bet, i'd fold, because i fold when i have an underpair and am facing a raise. if you tend to peel and fold to further aggression, maybe that's why you're in a downswing (serious advice).

what are you getting at, though? that it's a worthwhile strategy to minraise continuation bets with air?

maybe you can elaborate on this, limon, because i can think of several reasons that doing this sucks, especially at ssnl games. or maybe what you have to say is "too powerful to give away for free."

[the machine]

i agree, im not saying i dont have leaks.but i do see people min raise with KJ on that board. its such a confusing bet and i feel that if im folding to the minraises when i have a hand do i need to tighten up and not cbet when its a normal ting to do, because now if i only cbet when i have a hand again my hand is face up. do you see where im going here?

[tannenj]

i see what you're saying somewhat, but i don't understand how a minraise is more "confusing" than a normal raise. if someone is minraising you on that board with a hand like KJ, he is bluffing. if he feels the need to bluff any time he flops second pair, you will get his money, it's that simple.

it sounds to me like the issue is that you feel more temped to call minraises when you're weak than you are to call normal-sized raises.

i think this is evidence of a discipline problem, not evidence of the effectiveness of minraising.

[the machine]

the min raise seems like a i dont think you have an ace so ill just bet as little as possible to find out because i dont either and i dont want to lose more then i have to if you do have an ace

[Freelancer]

@Limon keep posting, its interesting stuff that gets me to think about my play.

It might make you proud but I minraised for the first time EVARRR in a long long time. It worked suprisingly well, my villain insta folded. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I am looking for ways on incorporating different bet sizes into my game, I think taylor said it as well in one of his video's. Basically he was using a lot of different bet sizes to accomplish different goals so he can use whatever bet size he wants in the future without his opponents becoming suspicious.


Btw I am also noticing that minraises are suprisingly common, usually they don't mean all that much besides the usual spectrum of bluff----weak pair---draw----monster and I'm making notes of villains that make frequint minraises.

I am considering of testing out minraising c-bets and see how people respond.

[tannenj]

i'm bumping this because limon seems to have disappeared, and to me it's kind of lame to leave a thread like this one in which people are confused and the issue at hand hasn't been resolved.

i know dan started a thread about minraising, but it seems to me that his thread went in a slightly different direction -- that one was about minraising in general and identifying good times to do it, this one is about how to react when your continuation bet gets minraised.

in case everyone's sarcasm detectors are broken, i was not being serious when i said that after my first two continuation bets got minraised, i'd shove over the top of every subsequent minraise. this statement was dripping with sarcasm. that some people seem unable to understand this and interpreted my statement as serious is pretty disturbing, but whatever.

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its like taking candy from babies but that is not the reason i started posting here but it is the reason why ill stop. the hsnl forums had become so poisonous, sophomoric, and misguided that i came down here to give some love to the up and coming students of the game. its even worse down here because you guys dont even have basic poker knowledge to accompany your juvenile delinquency.

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this quote is just laughable to me. these are strong negative words; i think it is fair to request some elaboration (especially in light of the fact that my sarcasm seems to have gone way over your head).

[advilandy]

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@Limon keep posting, its interesting stuff that gets me to think about my play.

It might make you proud but I minraised for the first time EVARRR in a long long time. It worked suprisingly well, my villain insta folded. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I am looking for ways on incorporating different bet sizes into my game, I think taylor said it as well in one of his video's. Basically he was using a lot of different bet sizes to accomplish different goals so he can use whatever bet size he wants in the future without his opponents becoming suspicious.


Btw I am also noticing that minraises are suprisingly common, usually they don't mean all that much besides the usual spectrum of bluff----weak pair---draw----monster and I'm making notes of villains that make frequint minraises.

I am considering of testing out minraising c-bets and see how people respond.

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Minraising is almost always a bad idea...if you're getting people to fold somehow by doing this, fine; just keep in mind that when you move up you can't keep doing this.

[ig06]

People seem to be very dismissive of min-raises because of the deeply ingrained "standard" wisdom that only donks do it. However I think it is worth considering that a highly experienced player who is one of the most respected posters amongst the long-term higher stakes players is recommending considering all bet sizes (as appropriate to the situation).
I personally don't ever min-raise but I would be fascinated to hear more from limon (and Matt Flyyn) on the subject of bet-sizing. I'm also interested in how the min-raising concept applies pre-flop. In Chen and Ankenmann's new book they talk about doing this when opening UTG. Below is what I wrote in another thread but as I recall, they were actually talking about min-raises UTG (my copy of the book isn't to hand :-(). I still don't know where I stand on this:

FWIW, Chen and Ankenman recommend raising less when opening in EP than in LP. Their reasoning is that you are trying to strike a balance between dealing with when someone still to act has a premium hand (when you don't want to play a big pot except with the top end of your raising range) and gaining FE when no-one does. The more players left to act, the higher the likelihood that you run into a big hand, so Chen/Ankemann recommend raising less in EP with the idea you lose less when you have to fold to a re-raise while retaining the option of putting more money in with your best hands. Conversely, if you are in LP you are less likely to run into a big hand and can therefore afford to raise more to increase FE/extract more value (depending on which part of your rasing range you are in).
I would love to see thoughts on this. My own view is that FE is often just as great when opening UTG as OTB because EP raises get more respect than button open raises and this somewhat balances the increased risk of running into a big hand when opening in EP. I think the argument gets more difficult then because table dynamics will have some influence on 3-bet/4-bet ranges which will in turn affect your attitude to being 3-bet when opening in LP. Anyway I'll stop rambling and just say I'm not sure where I stand on this and it would interesting to see who agrees/disagrees with Chen/Ankeman.

[Piece of Cake]

Without reads, lately when I'm the preflop raiser, cbet the flop, and then get minraised by a player in LP, I call and bet out the turn (half pot). This is the Epdaws poohbah-recommended standard line for AA/KK when facing agression. I'm seeing a lot of folds here so I've been doing it a lot more often with more marginal holdings.

To be honest it feels like spew without a read or an overpair. But like I said, I'm seeing a lot of folds. Any thoughts? I suppose it would help to know range the normal villian is minraising here.