It's about time we had this discussion

[einherjar]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

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Soooo wrong.

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disagree. care to elaborate? the 4BB 'rule' is with the assumption that we have standard 100BB stacks. With deeper stacks we can certainly (and certainly should, IMO) change the size of our pfr. I'd be interested in hearing WHY we shouldn't.

[aislephive]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

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Soooo wrong.

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disagree. care to elaborate? the 4BB 'rule' is with the assumption that we have standard 100BB stacks. With deeper stacks we can certainly (and certainly should, IMO) change the size of our pfr. I'd be interested in hearing WHY we shouldn't.

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For starters, because our range is MUCH wider than AA when we raise preflop. Also you really shouldn't be going broke with AA in a raised pot with 200bb stacks unimproved anyways.

[BearHustler]

Varying your raises based on your hand looks like a lot of risk for a small reward. So expert players might squeeze out a few extra bets with it, but if you don't know exactly what you're doing, it could cost you a whole lot more.

Also: I like the idea of charging people extra to play a pot in position against you, also bigger preflop bets OOP = sooner all-in when called = less streets OOP, and I play only good hands in early position anyway, so I'm leaning towards raising more in EP.

[einherjar]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

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Soooo wrong.

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disagree. care to elaborate? the 4BB 'rule' is with the assumption that we have standard 100BB stacks. With deeper stacks we can certainly (and certainly should, IMO) change the size of our pfr. I'd be interested in hearing WHY we shouldn't.

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For starters, because our range is MUCH wider than AA when we raise preflop. Also you really shouldn't be going broke with AA in a raised pot with 200bb stacks unimproved anyways.

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Well a couple things since it seems like you're missing the point. 1. this isn't something i would do only w/ AA. 2. OBV I dont want to get stacked for 200BB w/ one pair hand and with 200BB or more in our stacks that is going to happen OR we're going to have to give villain credit for a better hand and fold often. 3. my main point is that raising 4bb @ 100nl when we have 200BB effective stacks is ESSENTIALLY the same thing as min-raising in 200nl, and we don't do that.

[Minnie Man]

PF bet sizing also must be adjusted for the table. I play a live NL200 game and I would get just about the whole FR table calling me if I raised 4xBB. As far as I have seen online, a 4xbb+1xbb usually thins the field enough to 2-3 callers, but if I keep getting 2 callers (like 75% of the time) PF when I raise, then I bump up the raise a bit.

[Minnie Man]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soooo wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree. care to elaborate? the 4BB 'rule' is with the assumption that we have standard 100BB stacks. With deeper stacks we can certainly (and certainly should, IMO) change the size of our pfr. I'd be interested in hearing WHY we shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, because our range is MUCH wider than AA when we raise preflop. Also you really shouldn't be going broke with AA in a raised pot with 200bb stacks unimproved anyways.

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Well a couple things since it seems like you're missing the point. 1. this isn't something i would do only w/ AA. 2. OBV I dont want to get stacked for 200BB w/ one pair hand and with 200BB or more in our stacks that is going to happen OR we're going to have to give villain credit for a better hand and fold often. 3. my main point is that raising 4bb @ 100nl when we have 200BB effective stacks is ESSENTIALLY the same thing as min-raising in 200nl, and we don't do that.

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I agree. The deeper the stacks, the bigger the PF raises have to be. If everyone had a 2983BB stack, it doesn't make sense to raise 4BB PF.

[ig06]

FWIW, Chen and Ankenman recommend raising less when opening in EP than in LP. Their reasoning is that you are trying to strike a balance between dealing with when someone still to act has a premium hand (when you don't want to play a big pot except with the top end of your raising range) and gaining FE when no-one does. The more players left to act, the higher the likelihood that you run into a big hand, so Chen/Ankemann recommend raising less in EP with the idea you lose less when you have to fold to a re-raise while retaining the option of putting more money in with your best hands. Conversely, if you are in LP you are less likely to run into a big hand and can therefore afford to raise more to increase FE/extract more value (depending on which part of your rasing range you are in).
I would love to see thoughts on this. My own view is that FE is often just as great when opening UTG as OTB because EP raises get more respect than button open raises and this somewhat balances the increased risk of running into a big hand when opening in EP. I think the argument gets more difficult then because table dynamics will have some influence on 3-bet/4-bet ranges which will in turn affect your attitude to being 3-bet when opening in LP. Anyway I'll stop rambling and just say I'm not sure where I stand on this and it would interesting to see who agrees/disagrees with Chen/Ankeman.

[aislephive]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

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Soooo wrong.

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disagree. care to elaborate? the 4BB 'rule' is with the assumption that we have standard 100BB stacks. With deeper stacks we can certainly (and certainly should, IMO) change the size of our pfr. I'd be interested in hearing WHY we shouldn't.

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For starters, because our range is MUCH wider than AA when we raise preflop. Also you really shouldn't be going broke with AA in a raised pot with 200bb stacks unimproved anyways.

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Well a couple things since it seems like you're missing the point. 1. this isn't something i would do only w/ AA. 2. OBV I dont want to get stacked for 200BB w/ one pair hand and with 200BB or more in our stacks that is going to happen OR we're going to have to give villain credit for a better hand and fold often. 3. my main point is that raising 4bb @ 100nl when we have 200BB effective stacks is ESSENTIALLY the same thing as min-raising in 200nl, and we don't do that.

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Ok, so when stacks are 500bbs deep you should be open raising to 20xbb? Do you realize how retarded that is? Risking 20bbs to win 1.5? Also, rarely will everybody be 200bbs deep. If you have two guys other than yourself 200bbs deep, and two other guys with < 100 bbs then your strategy is not only unreasonable but is very exploitable, particularly if say somebody at the table has 50bbs and can play perfectly against you.

There was a thread in msnl debating whether stack sizes or blinds dictated raise sizes. In reality they both do to a degree but blinds are more significant.

Also wtf raising to 4x with 200bb stacks is not the same thing as minraising in a 100bb stack game. That is beyond retarded. Just because the default buyin for an online NL cash game is 100bbs doesn't mean the goal is to always have everything in relation to it at all times. That's the biggest BS I've ever heard.

[BearHustler]

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FWIW, Chen and Ankenman recommend raising less when opening in EP than in LP. Their reasoning is that you are trying to strike a balance between dealing with when someone still to act has a premium hand (when you don't want to play a big pot except with the top end of your raising range) and gaining FE when no-one does. The more players left to act, the higher the likelihood that you run into a big hand, so Chen/Ankemann recommend raising less in EP with the idea you lose less when you have to fold to a re-raise while retaining the option of putting more money in with your best hands. Conversely, if you are in LP you are less likely to run into a big hand and can therefore afford to raise more to increase FE/extract more value (depending on which part of your rasing range you are in).
I would love to see thoughts on this. My own view is that FE is often just as great when opening UTG as OTB because EP raises get more respect than button open raises and this somewhat balances the increased risk of running into a big hand when opening in EP. I think the argument gets more difficult then because table dynamics will have some influence on 3-bet/4-bet ranges which will in turn affect your attitude to being 3-bet when opening in LP. Anyway I'll stop rambling and just say I'm not sure where I stand on this and it would interesting to see who agrees/disagrees with Chen/Ankeman.

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What hands are you raising in EP that you fold to a re-raise?

[Dan Bitel]

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What hands are you raising in EP that you fold to a re-raise?

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AJ/AQ/KQ/SCs/22-99