Play a hand with me!!!

[McShove]

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Ok, I don't play your level, don't pretend to play your level and won't be at your level for a while.

I totally put on the brakes here. I'm not against a c/bet to see how you ended up on the flop, but otherwise I'm pretty much done here.

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pretty much done here? you can't play this hand that weak. The short stacks aren't actually very short, you flopped a strong hand. Like many of the others have said, a check-raise is likely the strongest play.

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I don't assume to be an expert or even a novice on the $215's but why would you tangle with the other big stack here? I made my pf comments, these are my flop comments fwiw.

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Why would the big stack tangle with you? If you have a mindset of always avoiding danger when both of the big stacks are equal, they are going to be able to eat you alive, while you go out of your way to avoid them. It's not fair to just let them have all the fun because they have more courage than you.

I'm obviously not excited that he called, but to just check fold everytime the other big stack calls you, is not a winning strategy in such situations.

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curtains is right on. Think about when you are big stack. Do you often attempt to exert your authority with mid or bottom pair? Probably. Finishing 4th sucks, but you can't constantly play like you are afraid of it. If you do, you are certainly giving up $EV.

[wildc@t]

Hi Curtains,

Me earlier:
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I would raise an amount that fully commits BB, and is purposeful in communicating my desire to do so.

t700-t750 to go...

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You:
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The key is to raise the smallest amount possible taht doesn't entice the BB to move allin or flat call PF, whilst won't encourage anyone else at the same time.

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You ( $3610 )
CO ( $1670 )
Button ( $3630 )
BB ( $1090 )


Maybe you can plug a leak for me here. Are you not willing to take your hand against BB's random? I'm assuming you're not folding when he pushes over for 500 more. If these assumptions are true, I'm not sure what the small raise does for you.

I DO understand we save chips if CO or Button wake up to a hand. But for just a couple hundred chips more, with your specific stack size, do we not avoid some of these complications?

For one thing, we remove any stop'n go thoughts from BB - where with the small raise, he still has a fair amount of FE to the flop. But do we also not keep Button from getting in cheap with a hand made much stronger than it is with his position?

I can appreciate the tight read, but for a fair price he's seizing an opportunity to potentially freeze you on just about any flop (as in the OP flop update). It would certainly still be the case - even more so in a much larger pot, had you raised more PF. But I'm wondering if with what isn't of huge significance (<- maybe that's my problem), a lead showing a little more committedness to BB, do we remove the flat-calling opportunities for those in better position?

Thanks for you time.

[curtains]

I'm willing to play against the BB, but I'd rather take his 200 chips for free than race against something like KTs. Of course once I raise to 525 or even 500, Im not folding to the BB.

Anyway, its up to you to judge what PF raise amount will discourage the BB from getting frisky. Also don't forget that by raising these extra few hundred chips, you will lose them whenever one of the 2 bigger stacks wakes up with a hand. IMO the BB is very unlikely to do something strange whether you raise to 500 or 700, so I don't think there is much value in making the larger raise amount preflop.

[GtrHtr]

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Ok, I don't play your level, don't pretend to play your level and won't be at your level for a while.

I totally put on the brakes here. I'm not against a c/bet to see how you ended up on the flop, but otherwise I'm pretty much done here.

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pretty much done here? you can't play this hand that weak. The short stacks aren't actually very short, you flopped a strong hand. Like many of the others have said, a check-raise is likely the strongest play.

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I don't assume to be an expert or even a novice on the $215's but why would you tangle with the other big stack here? I made my pf comments, these are my flop comments fwiw.

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Why would the big stack tangle with you? If you have a mindset of always avoiding danger when both of the big stacks are equal, they are going to be able to eat you alive, while you go out of your way to avoid them. It's not fair to just let them have all the fun because they have more courage than you.

I'm obviously not excited that he called, but to just check fold everytime the other big stack calls you, is not a winning strategy in such situations.

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I agree - and I never said to check fold the flop. I called for a C/bet on the flop, BUT shutting down if challenged. If that is completely out of line, well, I've stated my case, you know basically my level of play and I'm happy to learn.

[Annulus]

i like leading the turn for like T600-T800ish. Like curtains said, he will be equally cautious of his stack size and needs to show some respect. If he pushes I prolly fold, as you prolly are up against a better Ace. Im not scared to operate on the bubble with a T2500ish stack.

[curtains]

It's definitely not out of line. I was focusing more on your statement of "why would we want to tangle with the big stack here?".

Anyway I think this hand is very interesting. I find that I made quite a few obvious mistakes during the play of the hand, at least one of which is sometimes hard to recognize while playing.

[Unarmed]

I'm all for maximizing hand value in certain spots with passive lines that open up an opponents bet/call range but in some cases it truly doesn't matter what your cards you hold (besides the fact you have an aces so there's one less out). This hand is a good example IMO.

Given the chip distribution and a solid opponent's flat call range preflop lead flop for 700 and do not put another dime in the pot. He's not calling or raising that bet without a hand that has you beat. I think we can all agree that worse aces are not in this hand.

To all those who advocate check/calling, I hope you're committed to getting your whole stack in at some point. Check/calling and checking the turn is not good because now there are essentially zero hands you beat are breathing on the pot for the rest of the hand, (both due to stacks and the fact that the flop isn't super co-ordinated so you don't really look all that weak by checking it) and any hand that has you is probably getting their stack in the middle at some point so you're just giving free outs when ahead.

Check/raising ensures you don't fold the best hand - but its not necessary because stack distribution is giving your flop lead the extra strength it needs to ensure worse hands don't play with you. Plus what are we C/Ring to anyway with 3k stacks and an 1100 pot.

Anyway - point is: stacks here make his preflop flat call range pretty narrow, and they also do a pretty good job ensuring a) you're not laying down the best hand if you lead this flop, and b) you're not provoking bets/calls from many worse hands by playing passively. Therefore, you're not gonna extract any more value by playing passively, and you may just stack yourself in the process. So just bet.

[GtrHtr]

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It's definitely not out of line. I was focusing more on your statement of "why would we want to tangle with the big stack here?".

Anyway I think this hand is very interesting. I find that I made quite a few obvious mistakes during the play of the hand, at least one of which is sometimes hard to recognize while playing.

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Good point on my comment. I would be stack aware here tho.

[ilya]

Also checking is dangerous as you're giving him an opportunity to push.

[blindfold]

raise, its a small field