Not a whine, honest

[Kojak1984]

I'd like to see any of the players on here who are advocating a fold make that play themselves. I have seen so many situations like this with new players, I could have easily folded my 5s face up, only for him to flip over JJ. Trust me, I've seen it happen.

I don't see why you think that TPTK is not enough for him to go crazy with on that board? If he's thinking about the hand at all I'm probably not calling a raise with a hand that can now beat him, other than a set or possibly AA.

[ QUOTE ]
Since so many people are saying that there is no way they could ever fold their set here, why was the newbie's all-in push "overbet" with top set so bad? Sounds like he is going to get called 90% of the time by middle set.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, Yeah sure he'll get called 90% of the time when someone flops middle set, and the other 1034 out of 1035 times that a 10-handed table doesn't flop set-over-set, he'll get precisely nothing. If you think that's the most profitable way to play the nuts, well then good luck to you.

[AKQJ10]

I agree with Kojak and disagree with WinterGT. This is not because I don't believe an experienced player with a tremendous read can make some pretty sick laydowns, but because I got the impression that Kojak is a decent player but not tremendously experienced in live tournaments. He certainly doesn't have great experience with this particular guy, since Villain is new.

Now, you could fold middle set with a great read, but I think any of us would need much training before we could deem a read to be sufficiently great.

I have both folded KK preflop to a limp-reraise. I'm not sure if i should believe that my chatty right-hand neighbor was telling the truth when he said he had aces! But I'd not seen him play a hand like that. Another time, I called a flop push for $200 in a $60 pot with AK unimp. The AK turned out to hold up without improving. Hey, I was deep in this guy's pyschology and knew he thought he could bluff me out -- but I still wouldn't say I'm experienced enough in live play to make that a wise play. I just got a bit lucky. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[mvdgaag]

He might have bottom set or AK, maybe he bluffed preflop with some trash and is delighted to flop two pair with 53s. Maybe 46s, he found a draw and he's semibluffing. If he's a bad player he might not know to play tournaments carefully. Allin would in my opinion be a typical bad player move, whatever he holds, unless he knows he's up against a set. It could be a lot of things, but I doubt KK... Who would push with a set of kings? Wouldn't he think you'd probably fold and try to extract more from you? He doesn't know you have a set.

I'd call. Great opportunity to collect a lot of chips.
GL

[winterGT]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see any of the players on here who are advocating a fold make that play themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't know if I could actually, but tell me this.. is there any other way, besides flipping his cards face up, that he could give off the vibe "I have KK" more clearly than the way you described it? I mean, you probably just made this post to get comforted you did the right thing, but if you were to ever trust your read this is about as it gets imho.

[Kojak1984]

No, I made this post to ask the question as to whether it's really possible to place someone on one specific hand on a dry flop. I really don't think it is, but if you're saying that a guy who is showing maximum strength on a king high board can't be holding AA (even though a king-high flop is probably most player's wet dream when holding aces), well then you're a better reader than I am.

[Abbaddabba]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know if I could actually, but tell me this.. is there any other way, besides flipping his cards face up, that he could give off the vibe "I have KK" more clearly than the way you described it? I mean, you probably just made this post to get comforted you did the right thing, but if you were to ever trust your read this is about as it gets imho.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close.

It's completely unreliable.

We've never played with him before, we know that he's never played live poker before (and probably sucks), and after the first hand we see him play, he does something so ridiculous that there's no way he is competent.

Do you really think that if someone is dumb enough to do this with KK that it's THAT much of a stretch for them to do it with quite a few other hands? It's not.

It would be a shameful fold.


All of the information is clearly written in a way that implies he had KK. This post probably owuldnt exist if he had something else. The information is exactly as follows,

Villain is nearly a complete unknown.
Villain raises preflop.
We call and flop second nuts on a safe board.
Villain open pushes and looks excited.

[ QUOTE ]
Since so many people are saying that there is no way they could ever fold their set here, why was the newbie's all-in push "overbet" with top set so bad? Sounds like he is going to get called 90% of the time by middle set.

[/ QUOTE ]

And he gets all the money in 100% of the time if he plays it almost any other way.

Not to mention he wins a ton more money off of many other hands drawing nearly dead, whereas he wins next to nothing by open pushing.

[AKQJ10]

I agree with your post, but I want to jump on your word choice to make a point:

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a shameful fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems akin to statements one reads in some of the forums along the lines of, "I wore a skirt here," "I really showed some balls," or what have you. I try to stay away from these because I know my own tendency to goad myself into bad decisions based on some presumption that they show greater courage.

If you're convinced that it's a +EV decision to fold, then you should fold. The shame that you might feel over folding middle set really shouldn't enter into the decision. Sometimes folding takes more courage.

Maybe I'm blowing a word choice out of proportion, and you meant that it's a shamefully bad decision. I can buy that -- but I still felt like this is an important point. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GiantBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a tragic fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yo, why you gotta be a word nit like me? I completely agree with your point, however. Many of the bad decisions players make are because they don't want to look bad. That may not be what the poster of this sentence meant, but it's an attitude which can be very destructive. I've seen people call down my reraise with 4 high because they didn't want to look stupid like they'd just bluff raised. I'm pretty sure he missed his goal here, anyway.

[GiantBuddha]

Seriously, though. Don't fold the second nuts to an unknown in the first hand you've ever played against him. You're not that good. Phil Hellmuth is going broke here, so should you. Just don't whine about it as much as he would. This is what you call a cooler.

By second nuts I don't mean you have the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on a four flush board, and someone pushes into an empty flop. I'm talking about hands where you have to use both hole cards. This includes KK vs. AA preflop. Maybe if you're ridiculously deep stacked.

The point is, it's rare to have a read so sure that you should lay down second nuts. This isn't one of those spots.

[GiantBuddha]

And it's not that close, either.