25NL QQ OOP - I hate re-raised pots

[Kramer]

I like the C/C - C/F on turn line
If he checks behind this is good and if he makes a PSB I'll fold on the flop
If he makes a 1/2 pot bet I'll call , check turn and fold to another bet . He won't bet at us on the turn with something we beat. This is 25NL so I'm not that afraid of a bluff.
If he bets a lot he has it . If he checks he doesn't (most of the times)
Don't understand the part about the free card .

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
And notice that we're trying to push out worse hands, which is exactly what we don't want to do.


[/ QUOTE ]
Is this some new virus? Am I the only person here who thinks this kind of thinking (sorry) is gaining more importance than it should? Everyone in this thread seems to agree on this apart from me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Why is it so important worse hands do not fold?

[ QUOTE ]
Don't understand the part about the free card .

[/ QUOTE ]
Say a turn J into the JJ we could have folded out. Rare but he's paying zilch for the opportunity.

[ama0330]

Ok guys I'll put you out of your miseries regarding the rest of the hand.

I lead the flop for $6. My thinking at the time was "If I don't lead, he will know I don’t have the ace and he'll just push me off" and I'll come to why I think that is incorrect later on. He then timed all the way down before minraising me all in (to be perfectly correct, he minraised me leaving $3 behind. Grrrreat. Well let me say that I was on hyper HYPER tilt at the time in the middle of a really bad session, and I called. Before I called I yelled "IVE BEEN OUTFLOPPED EVERY HAND THIS SESSION AND I BET YOU ANY MONEY IM STACKING OFF. WATCH THIS." and so I did indeed stack off to A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

A note here that if you choose to lead, a fold to the minraise is clearly, clearly correct. Don't get the wrong idea.

In retrospect I think that leading here is totally wrong. I'll explain why I think so in a minute (work).

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so important worse hands do not fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
What happens when all the worse hands than ours fold? Do you see now?

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]
You can fold out worse hands. I know everyone hates this idea for some reason but it's better than bluffing you off the pot when you check.
If Ax isn't folding this ever then you make hay when you do this with AK. Bucketloads of cash.
When you check are you folding or calling a bet? How does checking help your progress in the hand?
EDIT: I guess I'm saying that betting here is the ONLY way we can attempt to neutralise the positional disadvantage we have. It's a long way to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree here. I wish I knew more about villian, like how aggresive he is postflop and stuff. Given what I know, I lead here just about everytime. This is a very tough spot without knowing how lightly he calls 3 bets and stuff. Given his raising range, I dunno what he calls a 3 bet with. Not really good at figuring out 3 betting range and stuff without being there.

I would guess he has an ace roughly 50% of the time.

If he has an Ace 50% of the time, and folds his PP around the other 50% (and we can mostly ignore the times when he floats with PP, that's pretty rare here, and when you catch a set) then you are looking at a +EV bet of $6. If you win the pot around 40% of the time with this bet, it's about break even. However, by checking you lose the power to make him fold out. folding out worst hands, isn't an issue. Letting worst hands draw out on you or stealing the pot is an issue. Just by betting the flop you fold out enough hands to make your bet profitable.

Anyways, I lead mostly for the reasons stated above. The last thing you want is for a pocket pair to get bold because you checked the flop when the ace hit. If you lead with AK here everytime, you should lead with QQ as well. If you check AK here, feel free to check QQ. In general, you want to rep AK here, regardless whether he will insta call you on the flop. I don't think he folds AT+ here often, but he make check behind on the turn, give you a shot at a set. Not much compensation, but c/c is horrible against some players.

I think this is mostly read dependant. I'd lead into aggro players, and c/f from passive ones. I think I C/C never.

C/C C/F seems bad to me, because really what hand bets the flop, that also checks most turns? A weak ace MAYBE? a pocket pair maybe? So he gets two cards at his price, with position on you. Seems bad to me. So let's say it goes as planned. You c/c 6 and check turn. He checks behind.

Board (rainbow)
A82 6 T

Hero?

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is it so important worse hands do not fold?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What happens when all the worse hands than ours fold? Do you see now?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes we actually win this pot some of the time [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Is that bad?

[marvin_1935]

ummmm, the whole point of a cash game is to get weaker hands to call and stronger hands to fold. hence, getting weaker hands to fold is exactly the opposite of the what we're trying to achieve. in this case a better hand never folds to a bet and worse hands rarely call. SO, there is little or no value in betting this flop.

say we bet the flop and this villain DOES call the flop with say JJ. what happens on the turn when we check? he bets (as he should with position) and we fold. so we put in 1 bet and folded the turn.

if on the other hand we check the flop and he bets w/ JJ, we call and it's unlikely that he bets the turn again. of course if he bets the turn we can assume we're behind and easily fold.

by checking the flop we get value from inferior hands and prevent getting bluffed out by worse hands as well as seeing the turn for the same price as if we had bet the flop.

the only good result from betting the flop is if the villain is holding KK and folds. KK is not folding the flop w/o firing again on the turn.

[Corrupt Rose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so important worse hands do not fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
What happens when all the worse hands than ours fold? Do you see now?

[/ QUOTE ]

In re-raised pots I don't mind worse hands folding on the flop since the pot is already quite big.

C/C this flop must be the last thing I would ever do. I either lead, and fold to a reraise or check/fold (no wrong in doing this, since the flop wasnt in our favour. We don't need to win every reraised pot). The reason why I prefer leading is since worse hands do fold this flop, and if we check, he may try us out and we have to fold either on the flop or on the turn. Why invest 6$ calling and folding turn or river, when we can make a bet of 6$ and taking down the pot on the flop against villain? If we can make villain fold hands that he will lead against us, it sure must be the best move?

I think c/c this flop, hoping for a cheap showdown is somewhat meh. Cheap showdowns in reraised pots preflop is like non-existant.

[AmonRaa]

My standard play here would be to lead for 6$ however now i believe this was incorrect. Only problem with c/c, c/f aproach is what to do on river if it was checked through on turn. Villain either has some pocket pair, K high or the ace. Is the blocking bet the way to go? In villain's shoes check on all streets means big weakness and I'd make a stab at it with any 2.

[marvin_1935]

[ QUOTE ]

Say a turn J into the JJ we could have folded out. Rare but he's paying zilch for the opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

leading this flop to protect from two outers is silly. do you see why?