Tabled hand gets mucked by an over anxious dealer - Ruling ??

[Percula]

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Since when is a tabled hand in a HU pot with action pending or action out of order a "fold"?

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I don't see how you conclude this is a tabled hand. A player bet, and in response to the bet the other player released his hand into the center of the table. Now I wouldn't fault a dealer for stopping and clarifying the action, but I also wouldn't fault the dealer for interpretting this as a fold.

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Easy. The player turned the hand face up and placed in front of him for everyone to easily see. Common practice in NL games, "just like on TV". If the dealer had any question he/she should have asked "Are you folding sir?" With any luck, the player learned a lesson...

[KenProspero]

I bet Button doesn't do that again.

Lots of times, I've seen a situation where one player calls "raise" and another player mucks his cards before even seeing what the raise is.

The only difference here is that Button threw his cards in face up. However, I don't think that makes a difference. He threw in his cards without announcing that he was betting. It's a muck.

Now, under the facts, it's a stupid muck, but people do stupid things at the table all the time.

When an action is ambiguous, I don't think you can fault the dealer, no matter what he does. However, in this case, I don't think it's ambiguous, it was a fold, unintentional or not.

I don't think the Floor should have given bb the opportunity to play the hand, but if everyone agrees, I can't get worked up over it.

Note, something in this description is wrong,

post flop, bb has a pair of Tens, and button has a pair of Queens (if I'm reading things right) -- how do the Tens 'hold up' when they were behind.

[Beck]

At the casino I play at (Casino Copenhagen, Denmark), the rule is very clear:
If you show you hand, before you're suppossed to, it's dead.

I had a situation in a limit game( we were HU), where I bet out on the river, and my opponent, then showed me his cards before making his call (which he obviously was going to make). And the dealer declared the hand dead!

But rules vary from casino to casino, I guess. (For instance, the dealers count down pots mid-hand on players requests in NL, which pisses me off)

[hayduke]

General comment: Foxwoods needs to do a better job training their floor people to be consistent with their rulings. (I’ve observed “magical muck” rulings go different directions there on numerous occasions.) And if the house rule is really as described by the floor person in question, that is stupid and needs to be changed to allow for some common-sense discretion in the name of fairness.

As for the questions asked by the OP:

If the house rule is that, without exception, the muck possesses magical hand-killing properties, then the floor person made an incorrect ruling. Still, he managed to stumble into a “fair” ruling, but almost managed to screw that up by giving BB the discretion to decide whether to allow Button’s cards to be retrieved and the hand to continue.

Size of the pot is irrelevant.

Whether or not Button shows his cards, but retains possession, is effectively irrelevant in this situation.

More general comments:

BB needs to stop daydreaming about the WSOP and act.

Button needs to be a little less anxious, wait for his opponent to act first, and remember to verbalize his action.

Dealer observed a player announce his intention to bet, but not complete his action. Then he observed the player next to act release his cards face up in the middle of the table. Dealer reasonably assumed this was a fold (albeit a stupid one.) Dealer could’ve, just as reasonably, remembered this is a 1-2 NL table (i.e., full of young fools) and taken a moment to inquire whether the player intended to fold. Dealer made the correct decision by calling floor when he did.

[Siegmund]

The floor was doing fine up until he said "but." Looks like a clear fold to me, even if a stupid one. I can't blame the dealer for doing his job - in fact if the dealer said "you're really folding for only $8 more?" I'd be quite annoyed with him for helping a player play his hand.

[Hotrod0823]

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Note, something in this description is wrong,

post flop, bb has a pair of Tens, and button has a pair of Queens (if I'm reading things right) -- how do the Tens 'hold up' when they were behind.

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Good catch didn't pick it up when I reread my post thats what I get for posting soo.... late.

Board was K J 4 rainbow, TT was ahead and he was holding 2 of his possible 10 outs.

Makes it much easier for the BB to play the hand out.


I thing is the BB annouced bet but didn't actually put any chips out. In the interm the Button flipped the cards essentially out of turn because the action infront of him wasn't completed.

[BumHunter]

about everyone i know has learned cardroom etique and rules from the school of hard knocks... it sucks but we dont get many situations like the one above... the rules of the cardroom are as important as the rules of the game..

*edit* poor example given (dont know what i was thinking)

[lossage]

If the muck is capable of assassinating a hand with a single touch, then the floor's ruling was wrong. If the muck is not so capable, then the floor's trash-talking speech was wrong. Floor gets a kick in the nuts for not knowing (or, respectively, articulating) the simplest of house rules.

[jjshabado]

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1. BB gets a kick in the nuts for Hollywooding and holding up the game.

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I think we let BB off with a warning and his nuts intact since he allowed the hand to continue instead of being a dick and taking the pot.