Raising for information

[JackSevenSuited]

I am a low stakes player and regularly play at 25/50 cent cash games. I often buy in for 80 big blinds. My question regards raising for information. Let me give you one example. I get dealt aces in early position and lead out for a 4x raise. One person calls and the flop comes Q 7 3 rainbow, a very safe board as there arent any straight or flush opportunities. I lead out for $3 dollars into a $4.75 pot and my opponent raises to $8. At this point there are only three hands i cant put my opponent on, either a set, two pair or top pair with a decent kicker. What am i to do now? If i raise i will have to make a raise to at least $16, at often a raise of double his raise resembles weakness. But say i do raise to $16, now half of my stack is on the table. I am raising to truly find out where i'm at but after putting half my stack into the pot if he raises again or goes all in what do i do? I find it very hard to fold AA in this position, i just put $20 into the hand and he could be bluffing. Please write back. Thanks.

[jedi]

Without reads at that low of a table, I may just go broke with overpairs on raggedy boards by calling and letting him bet his KQ into me for pot sized bets on the later streets. If you have reads that these players are fairly tight, then it becomes easier to fold the Aces.

It comes down to knowing what to do with the information. Some low limit players overvalue their hands and don't consider what you might have. They might be raising with top pair into you because you "obviously have AK" or they just might be enamored with their Top Pair because all the pros play it strong. You have to know the player a bit to know what the information means. Sometimes it's best not to raise for information if you don't know what to do with it.

[AKQJ10]

See NLHE:TAP for a general treatment of raising for information. Some ideas are summarized here:

http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/Betting_for_information

As you've surmised, the problem with 3-betting for information here is that the information may not worth that much. If getting 4-bet-pushed allows you to confidently fold and save half your stack, that's good. But if your opponent either overvalues AQ or KK (KK is unlikely) and would push with them, or if she is capable of such a deep bluff (very unlikely at these stacks), then the info may not be worth it. And a good player might smooth call the 3-bet with a set on a dry board, confident that you'll call big later street bets anyway.

Also, 3-betting for info loses value when you're ahead. AQ or KQ might feel confident with this great flop. By 3-betting you've said, "Hey, you may be representing TPGK, but I can beat that." Bad players won't much care what you're claiming to beat, but good players will get away from top pair here.

So all in all -- you're probably paying more than the info is worth here. But against a really straightforward player who would only call with AQ and would always push a set, it might be worth it.

Information could be one positive aspect of a bet without being the primary reason for the bet. E.g. on a more draw-heavy board, your 3-bet for protection could also have informational benefits.

Check out the Beginners and Micro Stakes NL forums, linked at left!

[nitril]

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Check out the Beginners and Micro Stakes NL forums, linked at left!

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this is a great resource [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]...where i go for lots of beginner and even advanced info [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[PantsOnFire]

You have AA on a Q 7 3 rainbow board. Your opponent has raised your flop value bet and there is currently $15.75 in the pot and you have about $35 behind.

Obviously, having reads here would be best. However, in the absence of any here are my thoughts. Even at these limits, guys with set here would likely just call your bet. Lots of players love slowplaying. Two pairs seems unlikely given the flop cards. Only a real donk would have two of those cards.

All in all, my inclinations is to shove all-in here. You are most likely going to put a lot of pressure on a hand like KK, AQ, KQ or even QJ. Heck some guys might even do this with A7suited.

I think in the majority of cases, you are beating enough hands here to feel pretty good. Shoving all-in will give somebody an opportunity to make a big mistake. Sometimes you will be beat here but it really looks like only a set of 7s or 3s is plausible and this won't happen nearly as often as the other hands that you beat.

[ThinkQuick]

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All in all, my inclinations is to shove all-in here. You are most likely going to put a lot of pressure on a hand like KK, AQ, KQ or even QJ. Heck some guys might even do this with A7suited.

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Would a stackadonk line be more appropriate here?
I think the villain would be more likely to pay off with KQ or QJ if we call and the checkraise (or check call) the turn.

[Barfunkel]

[ QUOTE ]
You have AA on a Q 7 3 rainbow board. Your opponent has raised your flop value bet and there is currently $15.75 in the pot and you have about $35 behind.

Obviously, having reads here would be best. However, in the absence of any here are my thoughts. Even at these limits, guys with set here would likely just call your bet. Lots of players love slowplaying. Two pairs seems unlikely given the flop cards. Only a real donk would have two of those cards.

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I play NL50 atm. Without reads putting opponents in hands preflop is more or less imposssible. Unless you have a read that your opponent is solid their hands are often almost random, they can easily call preflop raises with hands like K6o, 98o or 85o. They also can call with strong hands, I've played a few hands where I raise preflop, bet flop, turn and river and in the end the opponent shows aces or kings.

So, Q7 or 73 aren't impossible. Neither is QQ.

[PantsOnFire]

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All in all, my inclinations is to shove all-in here. You are most likely going to put a lot of pressure on a hand like KK, AQ, KQ or even QJ. Heck some guys might even do this with A7suited.

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Would a stackadonk line be more appropriate here?
I think the villain would be more likely to pay off with KQ or QJ if we call and the checkraise (or check call) the turn.

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Yes, this line might be better if you figure villain will be afraid of the all-in. Some are offended by it and will call out of spite.

You also have to think of your table image. If you shove and don't get called, you might have lost a bet or two but people will be wary of getting involved with you and that might bring more value than any bets won on that hand.

[Shes92]

[ QUOTE ]
You have AA on a Q 7 3 rainbow board. Your opponent has raised your flop value bet and there is currently $15.75 in the pot and you have about $35 behind.

Obviously, having reads here would be best. However, in the absence of any here are my thoughts. Even at these limits, guys with set here would likely just call your bet. Lots of players love slowplaying. Two pairs seems unlikely given the flop cards. Only a real donk would have two of those cards.


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I agree with this. Also this is a cash game and I would expect to win this pot a lot more often than lose it at the low limit games which leans me towards pushing. In a tourney with differnet stack sizes, getting close to the bubble etc this may not be an easy push but in the situation im allin.