Am I Overplaying Flush Draws?

voxx · #1 01-15-2007, 12:57 PM

Go gentle on me, this is my first attempt at posting hands so I may get it wrong.

This is a situation I keep finding myself in.
Flopping the nut flush draw but not hitting it.

I'm trying to build the pot before the flush hits in case the action dries up.

Am I being too aggresive. Any thought are greatly appreciated.

1/ Villain is new to the table and has only played 10 or so hands.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $262
CO: $264.38
Button: $499.57
SB: $86.75
BB: $76.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5SB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero re-raises, SB re-raises, Hero calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB

2/Villain is 20/15/4.25 through only 60 hands

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $87
Hero: $275.13
CO: $100.37
Button: $117
SB: $241.75
BB: $101.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10.5SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11.25BB

milesdyson · #2 01-15-2007, 01:11 PM

I don't really mind the line you took in hand 2. The flop check raise can later fold out AQ and AK. The turn bet is where you expect this to happen. That failed, but the river card is bad for AQ and AK, and now you're getting large odds on a bluff.

In hand 1, in general I would just call down from the flop check raise. In other words, it's heads up and I want to take this hand to showdown for a minimal price. If I hit later on, he's usually betting into me (implied odds are better than if you're the one doing the betting, usually). That said, 3-betting the flop, betting the turn, and checking the river unimproved is not a bad way to change it up.

So, I don't see any real glaring mistakes here, unless you always play hand 1 like this.

TomBrooks · #3 01-15-2007, 01:12 PM

1. You won't catch often enough to make raising with only one opponent have value unless you have other outs beside the flush or there is a chance you can make him fold with your raise.

2. You want to trap other players into building the pot, not make them fold. In this hand, your raise tends to make the player behind you fold.

voxx · #4 01-15-2007, 01:24 PM

Just to complete the second hand the villain had AJo.

Thanks for the comments so far.

colgin · #5 01-15-2007, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 1, . . . 3-betting the flop, betting the turn, and checking the river unimproved is not a bad way to change it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, in order to make a realy good decison about whether or not to bet the turn we would need mroe information about villain. That said, in this situation, against a guy who has already check-raised once on the flop, I would be more inclined to 3-bet the flop in order to take a free card on the turn and ensure seeing a showdown (just calling a bet if a blank fell on the river but betting or raising if I hit).

TomBrooks · #6 01-15-2007, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just to complete the second hand the villain had AJo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Better not to mention results until later in the thread. But anyway, this brings up a good point. Why are you betting the river?

LimitGod · #7 01-15-2007, 06:33 PM

The c/r in hand 2 is poor IMO. You fold out all of your equity. You want players calling here, not folding. By making it 2 bets cold for the CO you risk folding him out of the hand. You get in the same amount of bets my letting the CO call 1 instead of making the button call your raise. Now you are OOP and do not connect. Betting the turn if fine IMO but betting the river is poor.

TheGrinder · #8 01-15-2007, 07:46 PM

I would play hand 1 like you did. SB check raise does not necessarily mean he has a great hand. I would keep the iniative here with your nearly monster draw. He could then fold many better hands to your turn bet, like middle pair, top pair/bad kicker if he is tight enough. You have 15 possible outs against top pair and most of the pot equity on the flop. Of course after his capping it looks you are badly beat and any pair is not enough, he could have 2 pair, a set or a straight. Call the turn and fold the river unless you hit the flush.

In hand 2 I would love betting out the flop, CO often calls and button raising is only a good thing, I would then consider re-raising if I think the chance is good enough that CO stays in for the ride. C/R on the flop is out of the question, you will often end up heads up with the button with a worse hand (a draw). After C/R you must bet the turn and check the river if he calls. Why bet the river with A high, no worse hand will call.

bobhalford · #9 01-15-2007, 07:49 PM

I think in Hand 1, the bet/3bet line is nice for getting a free look at the river.

Hand 2 I would just call the flop and then if villain checks behind on the turn I would consider bluffing the river, but would probably just check/fold. The reason I call the flop is because I'd like CO to make up that extra bet I don't get from raising. It also disguises my hand when I make a flush.