default bet sizes on good flops

[jomatty]

i was playing with a friend last night and we got into a discussion on what to bet when you flop good to your hand. i realized that i almost always bet the whole pot (unless there is a flush or full house possible in which case i will make a smaller "either or" bet)
i do this even when i have say QQ22 and the flop is TQ4r. this is the exact hand and flop that started the conversation. it was a limped pot and 4 of us had seen it.
he pointed out that this is far from optimal in these situations where i want action. he (correctly) pointed out that i do not have a standard bet size in pot limit holdem (which i am much more proficient at) and in fact usually be less than the entire pot.
any comments about this and other bet sizing info would be much appreciated.
matty

[Jeff28]

So, you bet 1/2 the pot and then a 9,J,K, or A comes on the turn in your example. You have no blockers. Then what?

Bet the pot and let them chase is my typical play. Even with a hand as strong as top set, you could stack a second set and also wraps and runner-runner flushes can get there.

--Jeff

[Chimichonga]

You should be varying bet sizes to some extent. Doing so helps disguise the strength/weakness of your hands and prevents your opponents from being able to get strong reads. It also allows you to build pots and induce palyers to act in certain ways.

You should not be betting so little as to give your opponent appropriate odds to draw correctly. The drawing power of an individual PLHE hand is rarely as strong as a typical PLO hand. Thus, in HE, smaller bets help maximize winnings because on average you are still able to give your opponent insufficient drawing odds. Whereas, smaller bets in PLO typically allow for more "correct" play from your opponents, thereby lowering your expectation.

You also should not be varying bet sizes based solely on the strength of your hand. This is a sure way to get killed facing observant opponents.

[Bogglor]

I think it has to depend on the game. A lot of PLO games, at least the ones I've been playing in, are extremely loose preflop and see a huge # of players calling preflop pot raises with extremely weak holdings. Once the flop comes they tend to tighten up considerably facing a pot bet. In these games I think you have to protect your hands by potting on the flop. You don't want to bet less and get chased down by 3-4 players if you flop a strong hand on a draw oriented board.

I don't know if it's the games I play in or if its a normal feature of low stakes PLO, but sizing bets seems less relevant/important than in PL or NL HE. It's all really dependant on what the other guys are holding; if they'll call a 1/2 pot bet they'll usually call a pot bet, too.

[jomatty]

that was my reasoning was that while i wanted action i did not want 4 callers where a number of cards would likely put me in second place and in a difficult position with 10 outs. his point was (im pretty sure) that it is just too important to get action with your big hands and a full pot bet will get end the hand too often.
while he is not a PLO expert he is an all around poker player who i respect as much as anyone i know and most of the NLHE board concurs, so anytime he makes a suggestion i give it serious consideration.
basically i was uncomforatable with the fact that i didnt have a good reason why i automatically bet the entire pot on the flop every time i have a hand like top set in amultiway pot. it has me thinking about what it does, other than run out marginal hands that would be incorrect to call a 3/4s pot bet. people are likely to call with a wrap (correctly in most cases) or a smaller set (incorectly) if i bet the whole pot but a lot of the marginal hands who i do want to call and make 2 pair etc, which a lot of players make mistakes with in the games up to 400max (and perhaps higher as well but i dont have the experience to say).
im still wondering who else generally bets the full pot on that flop and who generally bet less (ignoring varying your play for deception for this discussion)
matty

[RoundTower]

90% of the time I bet the full pot on that flop with QQ, TT, 22, QT, AKJ9. Also very often with AA, KK, Q2 or even T2 if it is checked to me. Also with AKJ, AKJ9 if I bet at all. If the flop is Q72r I would bet less against tight players, but I try to be in games where I bet the pot there.

[kurto]

at the SS tables I play at, people are call (with incorrect odds) or they don't. Rarely does the size of the bet matter. Most of the notes I have on players is pointing out that the person in question doesn't care about pot odds.

At least at my tables (party or stars $25 PLO) more then 1/2 the people have no concept of pot odds. "4 outs? Pot sized bet? Call!!!" Therefore, you should bet as much as you can.

The only reason to bet less, I think, is if you're concerned about variance.

With this hand, there's at least 20 cards in the deck you don't want to see. And that number can grow on the turn. With 2 cards to come, your hand is pretty vulnerable.

That being said... I pot it. If everyone calls, good... you still likely have the most equity in the hand.

If the turn makes a straight possible... I make a 1/2 sized blocking bet and see if anyone plays back.

[Riddick]

[ QUOTE ]
You should be varying bet sizes to some extent. Doing so helps disguise the strength/weakness of your hands and prevents your opponents from being able to get strong reads. It also allows you to build pots and induce palyers to act in certain ways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Always making a full pot size bet or raise accomplishes the same thing.

I think to make less than full pot bets/raises on worse than nut hands or bluffs leads to you most likely exuding too much weakness for any bluff/semi-bluff to be effective (your bluffs will get called/raised too much). Likewise, less than full pot bets are far more prone to be raised and stolen from you by worse hands (top two into your middle set for instance)

If you counter this notion by introducing the confusion of making less than full pot bets/raises while in fact holding the nuts, then you are giving up too much "free money" when worse hands would have simply called you down regardless.

Additionally, strong draw semi bluffs/outright bluffs of full pot size will steal many pots as well, and will get your nut hands to pay off even more so.

[Pouncer]

At lower levels I'll generally bet 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot. This helps control the pot size. If I have good redraws, I like to steadily build the pot. Without good redraws I don't want to charge ahead blindly. I also bet draws and will bluff if a scare card falls. Betting slightly less than the pot still results in nice sized pots when I win but charges me less on draws and bluffs.

[Silent A]

Consider this about loose tables, if you have top set on a str8 draw board there is:

- up to 30% chance someone has a lower set (15% each)
- up to 20% chance someone has top 2 pair
- 40% chance that someone has an open end straight draw or better

It's common to call pot bets with these hands, especially if comeone calls first. If everyone folds they probably wouldn't call any way.

Remember, if you give them correct odds to call, you want them to fold.