AA missplayed?

Steve09797 · #1 01-12-2007, 08:04 PM

just sat down at the table, so I have no reads as of yet. I am a limit player converting into no-limit. I meant to bet 15 on the turn here...and screwed up, what is the standard? thanks in advance

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($49.80)
UTG ($61.05)
MP ($28)
CO ($69.25)
Hero ($47.50)
SB ($26.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($3.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, BB raises to $5, Hero raises to $10, BB calls $5.

Turn: ($23.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $18, BB raises to $38.3, Hero calls $18 (All-In).

River: ($97.55) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $97.55

keikiwai · #2 01-12-2007, 08:18 PM

since it's a BB call, his range is somewhat wide

the turn completes and 8 outer (double gutter), so it's not the card you want to see

on the flop, this isn't limit poker, pot is $3.25+$5+$5+$2.5=$17.5.... then you basically have to push any turn.... or you could push flop.... this board is getting a little too dry for that though...

Shaddux · #3 01-12-2007, 08:31 PM

What happened to my post?

Flop play is bad. If you are going to reraise, pot it--dont minraise

Voy Por Ustedes · #4 01-12-2007, 08:33 PM

Would recommend tweaking bet sizes a bit: Raise to $2 preflop (4xbb is normal + another bb for any limpers). Your reraise on the flop (after he's checked raised you) is too small: he's got to call just 5$ into 18.35 at this point so he's likely not folding anything.

As played it certainly seems the villain can beat one pair by the turn.

Steve09797 · #5 01-12-2007, 09:17 PM

thanks, I appreciate the comments. turned out he had 9 10 and got his two pair. i need to bet more on the flop

AKQJ10 · #6 01-13-2007, 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What happened to my post?

Flop play is bad. If you are going to reraise, pot it--dont minraise

[/ QUOTE ]

OP didn't minreraise. The 1st raise is for $2.50 to $5, so a minreraise would be for another $2.50 making it $7.50 to go.

I like to question the CW on small [re]raises, because I think it's the sort of platitude that everyone on 2+2 knows how to repeat, but not one person in 20 would be able to give convincing reasoning for. The thinking seems to be:

<ul type="square">[*]Donks minraise.[*]We don't want to be a donk.[*]Ergo we must not minraise.[/list]
There may be very good reasons not to raise small in any given situation, but I'm going to question them when they don't make sense until I'm given a convincing explanation for the CW. That's how we learn -- by having our views challenged and defending them, not by spouting them mindlessly.

On a draw-heavy board, small [re]raises are bad because they give cheaper cards to likely drawing hands. Here, as mentioned, the 87 double-gutshot is the only strong draw against you. Any pair has five outs (although you have decent redraws against two pair) so you want to deny 8:1. Because of the double-gutter, let's say 7:1 would be breakeven against Villain's range without considering implied odds. As played, the raise gives 4:1 expressed odds ($5 more in an $18 pot). The real problem is, OP is laying huge implied odds by promising to always surrender his stack no matter what. It doesn't have to be so. It's far far better to learn to detect when you're behind with AA and not pay off big bets.

Checking behind on this turn, which could have completed some draws, might be wise. You give up a free card but gain pot control, which means you're not going to get stacked every time your opponent surpasses one pair. You might also get more value by inducing a river bet with top pair. The downside is that you could face a really terrifying board by the river, for example if a terrifying eight rolls off, but that's the price of pot control.

So all in all, if you plan to give the turn free card, you want to deny a 7:1 draw twice, which works out to just about 3:1. The flop reraise needs to be a bit bigger, but not much. Making it $13 to go leaves Villain getting under 3:1 ($8 into a $21 pot). And there's some chance a true blank will turn, allowing you to bet again.

The real question on the flop is, could you get more value from AA with an even bigger raise? As played Villain called with top pair - bad kicker getting 4:1. Is Villain going to call a raise making it $20 to go here? If he's a complete donk -- otherwise, the huge raise is going to make him suspect his T9 is no good.

So I think a bigger raise is in order if and only if Villain is known to never let go of top pair ever. Otherwise, I think it's demonstrably bad, because it folds out viable hands AA is badly beating. It's wrong for the same reason betting twice pot to drive out a flush draw is wrong.

Now, if you don't think you can ever get away from AA here, then you need to cut down the IO drastically, and making it $20 is probably fine even though it will nearly always take down the pot if you're ahead.

Sorry for the rambling, but you can still count me unconvinced by the CW. Now go pick my reasoning to shreds.

AKQJ10 · #7 01-13-2007, 12:15 AM

Executive summary (since I'm so verbose): If you can't get away from AA then you need to raise the flop more once you've decided to 3-bet it. But if you were more skilled at not paying off big hands, then you could get away with a smaller flop 3-bet, which would allow you to extract more value from your aces because marginal hands like Tx and perhaps JJ wouldn't fold.

Bowlboy · #8 01-13-2007, 12:56 AM

AKQJ10, I dig your rambling keep it up!

My 2cents on minraising: Minraising is a good play when you suspect that opponent will likely fold to a larger raise, but will call a min raise, and thereby become pot committed either by the turn or the river. NLHETAP explains all this in the chapter on bet sizing. It doesnt specifically endorse min-raising but it talks about planning future bets to get your opponents entire stack in by showdown, and sometimes minraising earlier in the hand is applicable, usually when your hand is not particularly vulnerable against villains range.

When you have a monster hand that is not likely to get outdrawn you need to extract. It's a nobrainer that getting maximum value out of a hand sometimes will require you to play a hand slower than normal. This could involve just calling a bet on one street and sometimes it means you need to make a smaller raise. Get as much of villains chips in the middle before he realizes what he's got himself into. Ok, now I'm rambling.