$5/10 Razz--Three Pair

[WhiteWolf]

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1) Welcoming action while holding a monster. Implied Odds.
2) Masking your monster hand. Deception.
3) Establishing the ability to bluff paired 2's and A's in the event of a brick, without telling your opponent on 3rd that's what you have...


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For #1, others have pointed out that the bring-in is probably folding anyways, so calling with our monster is more often giving away action rather than getting it.

For #2, the only good defense against a possible steal is to raise with any playable hand. If you're playing that way, raising with A23 doesn't give away any information beyond that you have a 3-card hand, because you'll be doing the same thing with 875 here. Sometimes deception means taking the same hand and playing it different ways. Sometimes it means taking different hands and playing them the same way.

Because a 3rd street raise tells our opponent nothing more than we have 3 cards eight or lower, we still retain our ability to bluff our paired hands, taking care of #3...

[LandonM]

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the only good defense against a possible steal is to raise with any playable hand. If you're playing that way, raising with A23 doesn't give away any information beyond that you have a 3-card hand, because you'll be doing the same thing with 875 here.

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I couldn't disagree with this concept more (generally speaking, barring opponent-specific information that might dictate otherwise). Since it's basically the predicate for your entire rationale, I guess it's what I should address.

I believe that it is "usually" proper to raise any playable 3 card hand, however, it is far, far from being a "rule".
I suppose that for those who play a "trained ape" style of Razz where certain stimuli elicits a certain specific reaction in hope for being rewarded with the banana, this might be a simple and easy rule to abide by. However, I can think of, oh, i'd say a bazillion situations where raising "any playable hand" is not the appropriate response or play. I guess i'm one of those Donks who give Razz a bit more credit as a nuanced game than maybe "the book says".

So, in this respect, I guess that yes.. If your response is to raise any playable hand on 3rd in order to achieve sufficient pot odds to potentially call a brick on 4th and then reevaluate depending on what hits on 5th, then raise A/2/3 (which in and of itself is a remarkably unsophisticated style that will, as Eli Elezra says, "leave your children unprotected" in any situation where you don't improve, or, force you to perpetually bluff your paired bricks and pray your opponent folds.

If your style is such that 3rd and 4th are more carefully evaluated, then raise or call are equal, depending on the specifics.

I agree 100% that getting the 9 to call is marginal. However, when I have A/2/3 against reasonable opponents who are capable of folding, the more people in that pot, the better and ill gladly forgo the one bet on 3rd to potentially get another person in with a marginal hand like 9/Low/Low. If 9 is a real rock, then I suppose I might lean towards raise, but absent that, i'm calling 100% of the time for more action.

[WhiteWolf]

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...If your response is to raise any playable hand on 3rd in order to achieve sufficient pot odds to potentially call a brick on 4th...

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That is not the reason to raise 3rd street (although it is one (of many) reasons for raising A23). We raise any playable hand here because there is a good chance that the villain is on a steal. Since we raise a wide range of hands facing a possible steal, we already have deception when we raise with A23, and there is no reason to give up our equity edge by smooth calling the completion.

If the completion came from early position, and the villain was much more likely to have a legitimate hand, then just calling with A23 on occasion would add deception to my play, because I'll be just calling with a lot of weaker hands in that situation as well.

Out of curiosity, when facing a possible steal, what hands do you raise with? What hands do you call with?

[LandonM]

There is indeed a chance that villain is on the steal in this situation. Whether it's a "good chance" or not has a lot more to do with very specific game-play indices that Andy hasn't elaborated upon, so it isn't a presumption any of us can make (as you just did). No matter, the steal is an undeniable consideration of this particular situation where villain had a strong up and only has to overcome one other up-low and the bring.

The fact that he is walking off a cliff into A/2/3 is just gravy.

In the event villain is trying to steal by raising Andys up-ace, the RR might accomplish nothing more than a fold, leaving you with a hand full of wasted potential. A/2/3 is a hand I would MUCH rather play through than accept the consolation prize of a couple bets by catching an opponent in a bluff and taking it down on 3rd.

"Defending against the steal" is probably the very worst possible reason to raise A/2/3 in this situation, seeing as you are far, far from being in a "defensive" position with A/2/3. All it does is serve to end the action early in the event you're right.

When facing a steal (or what I believe to be a steal), I would usually raise with a decent low or even a half-assed low with a strong low upcard if the opponent is known to be capable of folding his bluffs. Monstrous lows, I call. Every time, 100% of the time, if there is even the slightest chance I can elicit another customer into the pot.

[Andy B]

Elaborating on "very specific game-play indices" would involve paying attention, which I'm not very good about online. Also looking up "indices."

I don't mind taking down $10 uncontested with A23.