Playing Flush and Straight Draws in Limit Tournaments

[Murakawa]

Does it make sense in the late stages of a limit tournament to ditch a flush or straight draw even when you have good pot odds? What if you are the big stack? What if you are the short stack? What if winning would make you the big stack, and losing would make you the short stack?
What if you're sure you're beat if you don't make your draw?

[slik]

Risk/reward probabilities are almost analagous to that of a NL tourney with tiny M's. As the big stack, it'll be primarily correct to take any +cev opportunity. As the small stack, obvious EV considerations have to be taken into account. And the on the flop the pot odds will generally be too good to fold. So the question defers to the turn. For 1 BB, you should generally see the river. But say if its 2 back to you, then depending on the payout, it might be close. This doesn't help that much, as all I say is "it depends", but it really does.

[Murakawa]

I take it, in other words, your answer is that if you're the big stack go for it, and if you'll be knocked out perhaps you can wait or a better opportunity? I suppose sometimes you can use aggression to win anyway, but they call you down so much!

[slik]

I think so. Main thing is that you want fold equity (what you describe as aggression) if you're barely getting the right pot odds to call. But honestly, I find it difficult to fold flush draws because all I see is a big pot, and I'm sort of greedy as far as trying to finish high in the money. (cause it's so much easier to steal blinds with a big stack, and the risk is way less than NL bc the blinds are huge and it's just a min raise). So if winning the pot will result in a big stack, it might swing consideration also if the table is weak.

[billy51]

I think it rarely makes sense to ditch flush draws and straight draws in tournaments when you are getting good odds. If the decision is close, then you can probably start taking other factors into consideration (stack size, table, etc.), but in a tournament, you have to always be trying to accumulate chips and if you are getting good odds to draw to a big hand and win a good sized pot you have to push that edge.

[Fiksdal]

Almost never try to bluff in limit. That includes semibluffs. In LHE I usually just check my draws, and call bets because you almost always have the odds you need.

[BriPlay]

I agree wih the other posts,
without any other info i'd play the pot odds, esp in limit.
but sometimes i will deviate if i feel i really have control of the table (ie I can steal at will, etc) that could make a difference.
In my experience late in limit tournies you rarely get the correct odds after the flop, so I'd be careful how many suited cards i play just in hope of catching flush draw (ie stick to cards with high card value based on position, since you often will have to fold because you wont have odds to draw). As was stated this is analagous to NL with low M.

Brian

[billy51]

[ QUOTE ]
Almost never try to bluff in limit. That includes semibluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this, especially in the context of tournaments. There are lots of times when a bluff or a semibluff is the right play, especially in the later stages of a tournament when people start to tighten up. True, players in limit tend to call you more often than in NL, primarily because your bet is smaller, but if you play limit tournaments and almost never bluff, I think you are giving up way too much.

[Jiggymike]

Limit tournaments are tighter than the limit cash games (that I play in). You can def. semi-bluff sometimes with strong draws if you have an opp. that will fold or if you are actually betting them for value in a multiway pot. I usually let pot-odds dictate my decisions almost entirely with consideration of my opponents tendencies. I'm not sure how significant stack size is with these draws since the math is always the same and you should only be folding if a few players are all in and you will be bumped up a level in $$$ or something like that. In small HU pots you can fold draws because the implied odds aren't there.