stars 2/4 me and enon disagree

[James282]

I'm definitely raising if the turn is a red deuce, but I'm calling in this spot. The ace is just a terrible card for your equity vs. villains ranges here.

A deuce is a different story because I do believe some people get away from t9 and 8t for 2 cold on the turn(and definitely A9 and a8 and other hand that had a backdoor draw with their pair or something on the flop).


James

[TxRedMan]

i dont think there is a right answer to this question.

raising has merit if it can make the button fold, but i doubt he's folding for two bets on the turn, esp. when an ace falls as that card will have helped his hand fairly often. so, i don't like raising.

calling down lets the button draw cheaply when you're ahead and he's drawing.

folding seems like the best line here. i can't imagaine you're ahead enough of the time to pay at minimum 2 BB's to get to show down here.

and if you are ahead on the turn, you're inbetween two players and about half the deck will kill your hand.


3-bet/bet is such a strong line into two players on this board....i'm mucking and not second guessing here.

[Hock_]

[ QUOTE ]
what hands is sb 3 betting with confidence there? i think sb has a lot of 2 pair type hands that hate that turn card when raised. a raise also puts button under a lot of pressure what appears to be something like KQ, T9, or some sort of hand he got trapped with on the flop. the only hands sb is going to 3 bet are AJ, a set, and a flopped straight. and AJ is close. im assuming sb doesnt have T7 most of the time. flush draws and pairs with a T as well as J9s, 98s, are definitely likley though. what do you put hero's opponents on?

i think one of sb's most likely hands is KJ (or even JT) and he is sick of mark's laggy ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This combined with the need to charge draws on this incredibly coordinated drawy board push this from a call to a raise in my book. I also think that there's a higher chance hero's ahead than some give him credit for. There are an awful lot of hands that the villains can play this way that are behind QQ, including any T, any 2 clubs, any paired Q, KQ.

[mike l.]

"folding seems like the best line here. i can't imagaine you're ahead enough of the time to pay at minimum 2 BB's to get to show down here."

unless youre very certain sb has QT there's almost no way you should fold here, too many potential outs.

[Lestat]

I see what you're trying to say, but the problem is you'll be beat more often than not. You're also not getting any hand to incorrectly fold here. AT isn't folding. AQ isn't folding, TT isn't folding, etc.

His hand is worth a call, but raising will often make a debacle of things.

[WittyName26]

i like raising...button is obviously drawing, so we want him to pay...sb could have some sort of weak two pair/ pair w/combo draw which we still have outs to beat...pushing button out with a turn raise would be ideal, but he's calling two cold here most of the time it seems(since he did the same preflop/flop)...call sb down on river(unless ten comes, then let us gogogogo)...if button 3-bets turn and sb 4-bets, i'm out like gobboboy's belly...also, i'm letting this go on river if any flush card/other scare card hits...

[mikelow]

How many outs do you really have if behind? Six, but a queen isn't a clean out. And the 10c isn't a clean out either. The possibility of counterfeiting two pair is the only reason to continue.

[Senor Choppy]

Raising is spew. You're just asking to get 3 bet with nothing but a few outs to chop.

[bicyclekick]

omg mike l raising is so bad (/finish sucking schneids off). it's not particularly close.

[mike l.]

what do you put sb and button on that makes raising so bad?