Flopping a set on suited flop

[1st and 15]

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Standard

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Very.

[UtzChips]

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Live tournament in a local casino. $25 buy-in, 5,000 starting stacks. Most players loose and not highly skilled. First hand of second level, blinds at 200/400. I have won one modest pot and have 6,400.

Player in 3rd position makes it 800 to go. This is the first hand he's played, so I assume he's probably tight and has a hand. Two others call from middle positions. I pick up 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and call from the button. SB folds. BB calls. Pot now 4,200.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Opener bets 2,000. Two players fold. I move in.

What do you think of this play?

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First, I'm not calling off 13% of my stack preflop with middle pair. You can't afford to pay that much looking for a set. You either push or fold preflop.



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Umm, no. This is terrible advice. 13% isn't that that much. 20% I'd hesitate to call here, but with the action in front of hero, and the fact that he knows there's going to be at least 4 other people in the hand with him, this is an easy call. You're probably never getting better implied odds than this.

As far as I'm concerned, you're bascially calling here with 66, 1 blind extra (the min raise) is the same as a call for me.

There's no way I ever push 66 against a tight, early position, min raiser. There's no way I ever fold because of the implied odds.

With a typical low buy in/fast tourney that hero is playing in, you have to take gambles like this and call here hoping to hit a set, because otherwise you'll probably not have a chance to build a stack. What happened is basically exactly what hero wants, he got the min raiser to committ his stack, probably with an overpair or maybe AK and double through.



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You're not pushin preflop cause of the tight opener, so you're concerned about an overpair, yet you'll call off 13% of your stack, hoping to hit a one of those 12% sets, or wrap around str8 draws, or all low cards. But if it's one of those two and Opener has an overpair...........

Seems to be me there are better opportunities. The more callers, the more ways an overpair can be made on the Flop, the more ways you can get in trouble.

I'd rather call with 65s, however, I wouldn't.

I'll give you an example of overpairs losing:

Early in a tournament at the Taj in Atlantic City. I have an average stack and catch KK.
1st player folds, I raise 3.5x BB. The guy to my left calls.
No other callers.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I don't have a spade.

I bet 1/2 pot so if opponent has a spade, he doesn't have pot odds to call, plus I have enough chips to go all in on the Turn and him still not have good enough pot odds to call on a flush draw.

He goes all in.

He either has a set of Jacks, AJ with Ace [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or AA.

But if he has a set, I figure he'd just call and if no spade comes on the Turn, put me all in. I put him on AJ
and call.
I am right and he catches a spade on the Turn.

Those are the kind of coin flips I like. You are slight underdog to have the best hand on the River, however, you have the best hand right now.

I can't see calling off 13% of my stack to see if I can get a 12% score. There has got to be a better way! Like calling in the BB with middle pair.

If overpairs have trouble holding up, I certainly don't want to be calling off with middle pair and praying for my Flop.

I don't know......maybe I'm just too freakin tight.

[woodguy]

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Seems to be me there are better opportunities.

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This was in the OP:

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5,000 starting stacks.
second level, blinds at 200/400.
have 6,400.


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The is a very,very fast structure, you can't wait too long for anything.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Dave D]

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Dave,
Those were my original thoughts (obv) but are you folding preflop to a push behind you with OP's stack?

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Yes. It's only 2 blinds, big deal? I don't really see the problem. Especially with all those callers, it's entirely possible someone was slowplaying a big pair. Also, like 90% of the time if BB pushes or something, I expect the OR to push, and then I can fold happily. I don't really see any issues here.

[UtzChips]

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Seems to be me there are better opportunities.

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This was in the OP:

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5,000 starting stacks.
second level, blinds at 200/400.
have 6,400.


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The is a very,very fast structure, you can't wait too long for anything.

Regards,
Woodguy

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Ok! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I give! This is a crapshot.........

However, rather than leak away my chips by calling with this mid pair, since it's a crapshot, I'd wait till I'm on the Button/CO/Hijack, one guy open raises 2xBB, maybe a call & I go all in with any 1 gap down to 75o rather than call with 66. That is, if I can't catch a decent hand b4 it's too late.

I hate the word "call" in tournaments. So does Lederer. I'll never forget his quote: "I've watched more amateurs leak off their chips by calling, than any other way possible."

Hold Em is a game of aggression. If I am going to gamble, gamble with the style of Gus Hanson, not like a wimp. Save that 800 so your "all-in" looks bigger to those you've rr.

At least you know that if you go all in with 75o and get a caller, that you have live outs [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I would use the opportunity, to announce after the hand is over, without any regrets, that I laid down 66 preflop. Cool as a cucumber I would announce it and say that I don't care, it was the right play. Then when I go over the top later with 75o..............If I'm gonna shoot craps, I'm doing it Gus' way. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Dave D]

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Live tournament in a local casino. $25 buy-in, 5,000 starting stacks. Most players loose and not highly skilled. First hand of second level, blinds at 200/400. I have won one modest pot and have 6,400.

Player in 3rd position makes it 800 to go. This is the first hand he's played, so I assume he's probably tight and has a hand. Two others call from middle positions. I pick up 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and call from the button. SB folds. BB calls. Pot now 4,200.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Opener bets 2,000. Two players fold. I move in.

What do you think of this play?

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First, I'm not calling off 13% of my stack preflop with middle pair. You can't afford to pay that much looking for a set. You either push or fold preflop.



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Umm, no. This is terrible advice. 13% isn't that that much. 20% I'd hesitate to call here, but with the action in front of hero, and the fact that he knows there's going to be at least 4 other people in the hand with him, this is an easy call. You're probably never getting better implied odds than this.

As far as I'm concerned, you're bascially calling here with 66, 1 blind extra (the min raise) is the same as a call for me.

There's no way I ever push 66 against a tight, early position, min raiser. There's no way I ever fold because of the implied odds.

With a typical low buy in/fast tourney that hero is playing in, you have to take gambles like this and call here hoping to hit a set, because otherwise you'll probably not have a chance to build a stack. What happened is basically exactly what hero wants, he got the min raiser to committ his stack, probably with an overpair or maybe AK and double through.



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You're not pushin preflop cause of the tight opener, so you're concerned about an overpair, yet you'll call off 13% of your stack, hoping to hit a one of those 12% sets, or wrap around str8 draws, or all low cards. But if it's one of those two and Opener has an overpair...........

Seems to be me there are better opportunities. The more callers, the more ways an overpair can be made on the Flop, the more ways you can get in trouble.

I'd rather call with 65s, however, I wouldn't.

I'll give you an example of overpairs losing:

Early in a tournament at the Taj in Atlantic City. I have an average stack and catch KK.
1st player folds, I raise 3.5x BB. The guy to my left calls.
No other callers.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I don't have a spade.

I bet 1/2 pot so if opponent has a spade, he doesn't have pot odds to call, plus I have enough chips to go all in on the Turn and him still not have good enough pot odds to call on a flush draw.

He goes all in.

He either has a set of Jacks, AJ with Ace [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or AA.

But if he has a set, I figure he'd just call and if no spade comes on the Turn, put me all in. I put him on AJ
and call.
I am right and he catches a spade on the Turn.

Those are the kind of coin flips I like. You are slight underdog to have the best hand on the River, however, you have the best hand right now.

I can't see calling off 13% of my stack to see if I can get a 12% score. There has got to be a better way! Like calling in the BB with middle pair.

If overpairs have trouble holding up, I certainly don't want to be calling off with middle pair and praying for my Flop.

I don't know......maybe I'm just too freakin tight.

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Ok seriously, this discussion ends now. 13% of your stack isn't that much and you're getting 4.5:1 (I expect BB to call, SB might call too which is even better). OP doesn't talk about antes, but I kind of expect there to be some but whatever. That's HUGE pot odds.

Nevermind implied odds, I expect at least one person to call an AI from me at some point in this hand if I hit a set.

I don't care about having an overpair, or flopping a straight draw, those aren't really considerations here because we know someone's calling the all in (probably the OR). When a tourney has a fast structure like this, it's not about waiting to pushbot, its about creating +CEV situations for yourself and/or taking them when they happen. This is one of them. Which is why I would even consider calling off 25% of my stack here (say the blinds were a bigger part of my stack) because I'll probably lose push botting later anyway, so I might as well take a shot at building a stack.

[UtzChips]

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Ok seriously, this discussion ends now. 13% of your stack isn't that much and you're getting 4.5:1 (I expect BB to call, SB might call too which is even better). OP doesn't talk about antes, but I kind of expect there to be some but whatever. That's HUGE pot odds.

Nevermind implied odds, I expect at least one person to call an AI from me at some point in this hand if I hit a set.

When a tourney has a fast structure like this, it's not about waiting to pushbot, its about creating +CEV situations for yourself and/or taking them when they happen. This is one of them. Which is why I would even consider calling off 25% of my stack here (say the blinds were a bigger part of my stack) because I'll probably lose push botting later anyway, so I might as well take a shot at building a stack.

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Ok. Harrington & Two Plus Two Publishing needs to re-write the short chapter on Yellow Zone Strategy- pg133-136, or modify it to include these type tournies, or note that these type tournies are nothing more than a crapshot and everything is totally different, or I know, I'll just give and admit I'm wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I never play in these type tournaments.

We have a $100+20, with one optional rebuy or add-on, but not both, here in town. Usually avg 25 players.

Levels go up every 20 minutes. 25 minutes after the first 3 levels.
Start with 10k
100/200;200/400;300/600;400/800;500/1k;1.5k/3k;4k/5k;5k/10k
10k/20k;15k/30k;30k/60k

These guys are good. Several of them have won tournaments in Atlantic City. One just won the Seniors at the Taj and another took 2nd.

So I just got off the phone with a very good player. The one who took 2nd. He would call also. Even in our tournaments with the better blind structure and time controls, against players who are quite a bit better than the ones in OP's tourney.

Harrington, however, needs to see himself winning 24 BB's before he calls. That's 9600 chips in OP's situation, however, you're right and I failed to consider just how fast OP's tournament structure is. My bad.

[AceLuby]

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I can't see calling off 13% of my stack to see if I can get a 12% score.

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This does not matter because when we do hit we make more than we lost the other 90% of the time. Implied odds. Calling PF is ok, not great, not terrible. I agree w/ the push or fold mentality PF, but the read is that EP raiser is a tighty. If we do hit we can stack his AA,KK,TPTK, whatever which makes it +EV. Calling 13% of your stack for a chance to more than double up (due to implied odds and the dead $$$) is the right move, IF you can manage to double up that is.

[UtzChips]

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I can't see calling off 13% of my stack to see if I can get a 12% score.

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This does not matter because when we do hit we make more than we lost the other 90% of the time. Implied odds. Calling PF is ok, not great, not terrible. I agree w/ the push or fold mentality PF, but the read is that EP raiser is a tighty. If we do hit we can stack his AA,KK,TPTK, whatever which makes it +EV. Calling 13% of your stack for a chance to more than double up (due to implied odds and the dead $$$) is the right move, IF you can manage to double up that is.

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I understand and agree now, in this type tournament. I'm not so sure about the WSOP Main Event, when my M is 10 though. Harrington says (Vol II pg 135) that you need to win 24 BB just to break even to compensate for the times you don't hit your set, or do and lose to a str8 or flush.

All that is inmaterial in a tournament structure of the OP's.

[OneByPhi]

Thanks to all for the stimulating discussion. You've given me some things to think about.

Just to give a bit more background, this tourney has 12 minute blinds and they double every time except that they go from 400/800 to 500/1000. The number of players varies from 25-45. It always takes less than 2 hours from start to finish. Payout varies with participants, but from 3-5 places get paid.

I know I'm a pedestrian player, but I am trying to learn more and eagerly seek new ideas and a more sophisticated view of the game. Even though I know I'm not a good player on the absolute level yet, most of my competitors in this tourney are horrid. I play 3-5 times per week there and make the final table more than 3/4 the time, and cash about 1/4 the time. I am significantly ahead of the game, cashwise.

I have found that for this particular tourney, these kinds of calls early in the tourney have been +EV. When I hit a set, I can almost always make more than enough to compensate for all the times that I toss the hand when the flop doesn't help me. The blinds go up fast, and I feel that I have to take opportunities for big pots.

I would appreciate any other feedback on this thread that the community can offer. Thanks.