Flopping a set on suited flop

[OneByPhi]

Live tournament in a local casino. $25 buy-in, 5,000 starting stacks. Most players loose and not highly skilled. First hand of second level, blinds at 200/400. I have won one modest pot and have 6,400.

Player in 3rd position makes it 800 to go. This is the first hand he's played, so I assume he's probably tight and has a hand. Two others call from middle positions. I pick up 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and call from the button. SB folds. BB calls. Pot now 4,200.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Opener bets 2,000. Two players fold. I move in.

What do you think of this play?

[henrikjs]

Standard

[UtzChips]

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Live tournament in a local casino. $25 buy-in, 5,000 starting stacks. Most players loose and not highly skilled. First hand of second level, blinds at 200/400. I have won one modest pot and have 6,400.

Player in 3rd position makes it 800 to go. This is the first hand he's played, so I assume he's probably tight and has a hand. Two others call from middle positions. I pick up 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and call from the button. SB folds. BB calls. Pot now 4,200.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Opener bets 2,000. Two players fold. I move in.

What do you think of this play?

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First, I'm not calling off 13% of my stack preflop with middle pair. You can't afford to pay that much looking for a set. You either push or fold preflop.

Second, Opener either has set of K's Js, or AK with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Odds are, it was the AK, so you have to push.
Even if he flopped a flush, you are only a 2:1 Dog, and he may have the flush, but if I had it, I would have only bet around 1600 into a 3800 pot and then pushed on the Turn.

[J.A.K.]

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First, I'm not calling off 13% of my stack preflop with middle pair. You can't afford to pay that much looking for a set. You either push or fold preflop.

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No. Hero needs to make 6000 on his 800 call. There is already 3000 in the pot when it gets to him so OP needs to pick up an additional 3000 (< than a PSB) when he hits. As it turned out, he only needs an additional 1800. This is very likely with 3 others already in the pot. Although OP should have listed other players stack sizes.

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Second, Opener either has set of K's Js, or AK with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Odds are, it was the AK, so you have to push.
Even if he flopped a flush, you are only a 2:1 Dog, and he may have the flush, but if I had it, I would have only bet around 1600 into a 3800 pot and then pushed on the Turn.

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Or he could be cbetting Q's w/ a diamond or AJ (he did minraise) or a MP (bluff) as players are "loose and not highly skilled". The problem is the most OP can make is 1.75-1 and he is a 2-1 dog to improve...if he needs to. His shove offers over 3-1 PO so there is very little FE AND he has BB left to act as well. Pretty tough spot. The close odds, the times we are ahead, and our 33% to redraw against the flush makes me shove it in. Set over set...oh well GG.

[J.A.K.]

Oops. I think I misunderstood your post Utz. Thought you were suggesting that OP did not have IO. You are right, with OP's 16 BB stack and action left behind it is better to push or fold preflop with a lean towards fold.

As played the rest still goes.

[Dave D]

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Standard

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[Dave D]

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[ QUOTE ]
Live tournament in a local casino. $25 buy-in, 5,000 starting stacks. Most players loose and not highly skilled. First hand of second level, blinds at 200/400. I have won one modest pot and have 6,400.

Player in 3rd position makes it 800 to go. This is the first hand he's played, so I assume he's probably tight and has a hand. Two others call from middle positions. I pick up 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and call from the button. SB folds. BB calls. Pot now 4,200.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Opener bets 2,000. Two players fold. I move in.

What do you think of this play?

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First, I'm not calling off 13% of my stack preflop with middle pair. You can't afford to pay that much looking for a set. You either push or fold preflop.



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Umm, no. This is terrible advice. 13% isn't that that much. 20% I'd hesitate to call here, but with the action in front of hero, and the fact that he knows there's going to be at least 4 other people in the hand with him, this is an easy call. You're probably never getting better implied odds than this.

As far as I'm concerned, you're bascially calling here with 66, 1 blind extra (the min raise) is the same as a call for me.

There's no way I ever push 66 against a tight, early position, min raiser. There's no way I ever fold because of the implied odds.

With a typical low buy in/fast tourney that hero is playing in, you have to take gambles like this and call here hoping to hit a set, because otherwise you'll probably not have a chance to build a stack. What happened is basically exactly what hero wants, he got the min raiser to committ his stack, probably with an overpair or maybe AK and double through.

[OneByPhi]

Thanks for the feedback so far. More info:
Opener had 4,700. BB had roughly 8,000. 2 callers who folded later had between 4,000 and 5,000. Also BB checked before opener bet his 2,000.

[J.A.K.]

Dave,
Those were my original thoughts (obv) but are you folding preflop to a push behind you with OP's stack?

[UtzChips]

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Oops. I think I misunderstood your post Utz. Thought you were suggesting that OP did not have IO. You are right, with OP's 16 BB stack and action left behind it is better to push or fold preflop with a lean towards fold.

As played the rest still goes.

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Thanks. You had me guessing [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]