saying "thank you"

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
think about how you feel when you see somebody is being inconsiderate at the table, regardless of who they are doing it to. -this is how the whole table views him.

he wont last. not at that table and not in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your conclusion is not correct.

Unless some of these other players are good, then he will win no matter what they think of him. (Unless they cheat)

It is simply my opinion that IF a good player is sitting in this game, and IF you do this to a good player, then you will harm yourself more than you will gain.

Dov

[z32fanatic]

I've started noting these people that say "TY" and have started slowrolling them at every opportunity. It's very theraputic.

[hornpout]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
think about how you feel when you see somebody is being inconsiderate at the table, regardless of who they are doing it to. -this is how the whole table views him.

he wont last. not at that table and not in poker.


[/ QUOTE ]


Your conclusion is not correct.

Unless some of these other players are good, then he will win no matter what they think of him. (Unless they cheat)

It is simply my opinion that IF a good player is sitting in this game, and IF you do this to a good player, then you will harm yourself more than you will gain.

Dov

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. i guess that was my assumption, concluding that there were at least a couple of good players at the table.

i stand by my 2nd point though, these type of people just dont get it and dont last in poker, they have a hard time disassociating between their OL behavior when they sit down to play live. in general, their feelings bottle up because they dont have the balls to be as brazen face to face and their only insult is mummbled when they get up after dumping. if they do have a sack, then they may just show this attitude at a live table and tilt themselves to the same result. either way, there is no place for them in poker except to create revenue. -mj

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
i stand by my 2nd point though, these type of people just dont get it and dont last in poker, they have a hard time disassociating between their OL behavior when they sit down to play live. in general, their feelings bottle up because they dont have the balls to be as brazen face to face and their only insult is mummbled when they get up after dumping. if they do have a sack, then they may just show this attitude at a live table and tilt themselves to the same result. either way, there is no place for them in poker except to create revenue. -mj

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically agree with this, but I come to a different conclusion.

They can last, but they will never excel. That means that they will be doomed to lower limits where there will be fewer players good enough to adjust properly.

Were they to move up, they would get destroyed.

Dov

[Shoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is one of the simplest, most dick moves in online poker. Anyone who does this is an automatic jackass. It's kind of like saying, "Thanks for being there to get unwillingly ass-pounded."


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that and the people that say "bye" after they knock someone out of a tournament. I can't stand them.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i stand by my 2nd point though, these type of people just dont get it and dont last in poker, they have a hard time disassociating between their OL behavior when they sit down to play live. in general, their feelings bottle up because they dont have the balls to be as brazen face to face and their only insult is mummbled when they get up after dumping. if they do have a sack, then they may just show this attitude at a live table and tilt themselves to the same result. either way, there is no place for them in poker except to create revenue. -mj

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically agree with this, but I come to a different conclusion.

They can last, but they will never excel. That means that they will be doomed to lower limits where there will be fewer players good enough to adjust properly.

Were they to move up, they would get destroyed.

Dov

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why this in any way precludes excellence in poker, but luckily I am not striving for excellence, simply profitability in the games I play. Its just a job, not a career. I assure you, my behavior does not come from any specific personality or character flaw, but solely from an EV estimation. If I am wrong to do it, it is because I am incorrectly gauging the EV of the decision, not because I am such a stunted child, emotionally, that I can't resist being a dick to everyone I see.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why this in any way precludes excellence in poker, but luckily I am not striving for excellence, simply profitability in the games I play. Its just a job, not a career. I assure you, my behavior does not come from any specific personality or character flaw, but solely from an EV estimation. If I am wrong to do it, it is because I am incorrectly gauging the EV of the decision, not because I am such a stunted child, emotionally, that I can't resist being a dick to everyone I see.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just made my point, thank you. (I mean it sincerely, not sarcastically.)

One of the basic concepts of poker is to choose that action that results in the MOST positive EV (or the least negative). This technique does not accomplish that.

While it may add to your winrate in the games you are currently playing, it will prevent you from learning to exploit certain game conditions that you will encounter much more frequently at higher limits.

Put simply, the players will adjust to you before you realize what has happened.

You can rationalize decisions to others as much as you like. When you start believing your own image and are no longer really self critical of yourself is when you can no longer improve your game.

Thank you for your insight. I enjoyed this thread.

Good Luck

Dov

[DaBusiness]

[ QUOTE ]
I've started noting these people that say "TY" and have started slowrolling them at every opportunity. It's very theraputic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always make a note of people who piss me off in chat, so that i can remember to give it back when i stack them. childish i know, but these guys deserve it if they dare to try and [censored] me off. only problem is that it can make me look like a jackass if i bump into them weeks later, and im finding im getting into a few feuds, but i can handle it, and it makes the game more interesting.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why this in any way precludes excellence in poker, but luckily I am not striving for excellence, simply profitability in the games I play. Its just a job, not a career. I assure you, my behavior does not come from any specific personality or character flaw, but solely from an EV estimation. If I am wrong to do it, it is because I am incorrectly gauging the EV of the decision, not because I am such a stunted child, emotionally, that I can't resist being a dick to everyone I see.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just made my point, thank you. (I mean it sincerely, not sarcastically.)

One of the basic concepts of poker is to choose that action that results in the MOST positive EV (or the least negative). This technique does not accomplish that.

While it may add to your winrate in the games you are currently playing, it will prevent you from learning to exploit certain game conditions that you will encounter much more frequently at higher limits.

Put simply, the players will adjust to you before you realize what has happened.

You can rationalize decisions to others as much as you like. When you start believing your own image and are no longer really self critical of yourself is when you can no longer improve your game.

Thank you for your insight. I enjoyed this thread.

Good Luck

Dov

[/ QUOTE ]

While this thread is certainly making me rethink this as a tool in my arsenal, I am a little disheartened in your approach. You seem to be 100% sure that this is -EV, or at least less +EV than not doing it. But you've really just continued to assert it, rather than support it. What are these situations I am missing out on by doing this to certain players? It seems like you are saying something like "Practicing good game selection will prevent you from ever becoming a good player, because you will be avoiding situations which lead to your growth as a player." Perhaps that is true, but would you recommend I do NOT practice good game selection? This tactic is really similar to game selection, except it is more proactive.

Do you only play in the toughest games you can find?

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be 100% sure that this is -EV, or at least less +EV than not doing it. But you've really just continued to assert it, rather than support it. What are these situations I am missing out on by doing this to certain players?

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget the good player's adjustments for now and consider this:

It has been my experience that fish quit on you faster and are more reluctant to play in your game if you are abusive/abrasive to them.

When the fish leave the game you are left in a tougher game than you were before. This will happen even if you don't directly target the fish, because they know they will be next. (Even if they're wrong, they know.)

This leads directly to your next statement:

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like you are saying something like "Practicing good game selection will prevent you from ever becoming a good player, because you will be avoiding situations which lead to your growth as a player."

[/ QUOTE ]

Game selection is supposed to be practiced before you sit down as well as once you start your session. It seems like you are extending an umbrella called 'Make the good players into bad players or convince them to quit' over your Game Selection guidelines.

If the players are so much better than you that you can't figure out how to beat them except by trying to tilt them, then I think you will be better served, however you measure it, by simply quitting the game and looking for a softer one. My personal preference, though, is to find out why these guys are better than me.

Doyle said it very well: "Poker is a people game played with cards."

If you constantly get under people's skin, you will eventually run into problems. For example, I play in many live games, some of them underground games. (Nothing smaller than 10/20)

You would be surprised how many people have been blacklisted for being abrasive. It's not good for overall EV. If you're not invited, you can't win.

I really don't know what else to tell you. You are right that I believe strongly that your position is not optimal. I'm afraid that I don't have statistical evidence to back it up. It is possible that I'm wrong which is part of the beauty of this game. In the end, you need to make up your own mind after hearing what others say and, hopefully, thinking it out for yourself. Whatever conclusion you come to I hope it works out well for you.

BTW,

[ QUOTE ]
Do you only play in the toughest games you can find?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do occasionally go out of my way to play tough opponents if I feel that there is a good chance that I will be able to test myself and/or learn something. This practice has lead to some good poker friendships with people who know what they are talking about. This kind of networking is and has been very beneficial to my development as a player.

FWIW, this network doesn't include people who are abrasive.

Good Luck,

Dov