Weakly played overpair

[Coz]

I think that you should have raised preflop, your hand is probably best but has a good chance of being outdrawn on a flop with so many players. I would have bet less on the flop, for one thing a pot sized bet risks to many chips where you could have stolen the pot and gotten the same information with a raise of maybe around 250. I don't think villian would have played a hand like A8 the same way that he played this hand, my guess would be that it is very likley that he hit a set on the flop. I think I would have folded the turn as well.

[Jeff76]

Ok, well to all those saying to raise PF, limping here is fine. TT is a hand that can go both ways and when I'm deep I often play for a big pot (set value) rather than a small one (if you are playing high card strength, it's going to be hard to get bets in on multiple streets).

I think you have to fold to the check/raise. You are beating 99, A8, and some weird bluff. That's not enough to be willing to play a single pair in what looks to be a huge pot.

Not that I'm good enough to fold an overpair there, I just think it's the correct play [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[DPK99]

The flop looks good for you, but without raising preflop, you don't know what range the others are sitting on, especially MP2. The hands he would have folded preflop could now be beating you, and his check raise might indicate a set.

I think his possible holdings are 33, 44, 88, 99+, or A8. Even eliminating him having a set, the only hand you will beat is A9.

[Fiksdal]

<font color="blue">I just realized this is pretty [censored] long. Well whatever, I think it's worth the read.</font>

About preflop: I have this big problem with medium pocket pairs. Sure, TT is probably the best hand right now, but what I consider is how well it gets value postflop.

I very rarely like the flop with TT, so when I c-bet it, I really don't want to be called. If I'm called on the flop, the villain often has me beat. So when I raise preflop with TT, and bet the flop, my hand is basically turning in to some kind of bluff.

Sometimes (like 33%) the flop gives me an overpair with TT. The problem now, is that if I have the best hand now, someones gonna have to have flopped top pair with A9 or something if I'm gonna have the best hand AND get value. So the TT overpair is pretty hard to felt with too. And on these occations some of the lower pocket pairs might have hit sets too.

So basically, if I raise preflop and play TT for "one pair value", I'm either gonna win a small pot, or be faced with some very tough decisions in my attempt to avoid losing a big one.

I find a lot more value in limping, or calling the current raise with TT (and the smaller pairs). This way, I'm inviting other people to come into the hand also, which is good. When you are looking to flop a set, because then there are more donks around who are more likely to pay you off when you do hit your set.

This was my idea here. The current pot was t250. If I made a normal raise to t450 or something, I might have taken the pot down. Still, I found it a lot more valuable to keep MP2 and the blinds in, hope I hit a set, and then be looking at good chances of winning a big pot.

However, this flop was probably the most favourable non-set flop for TT I had seen in all of 2006. When it was also checked to me, it was a pretty easy bet. Confused me quite a bit when villain check-raised me though. Especially when it's basically impossible for him to have a draw. His line really looked to me like it could be 33/44/88... some slim chances of 99 or A8. JJ-AA are not possibilities because of his preflop action.

However, t800 wasn't very expensive. OOP I'd defineatley fold, but here I had position. So if I called, I could see what villain did on the turn. If he checked, I would consider 99/A8 more likely.

When villain lead the turn too though, I just couldn't continue. If I called this bet the pot would become t6800, and villain would most likely bet at least t3000 on the river, and I would have to call that too, commiting almost my entire stack. So turn was basically where I needed to make a decision for my stack. And I couldn't really felt with TT here.

I'd be cool to hear some more discussion from those advocating a raise preflop. This is a part of my game that I'm a bit insecure about.

[seke2]

Fiks,
If you didn't have position AND a read that the limp has limp/folded previously, limping might not be so bad. I understand the desire to play it for set value, but you're basically turning TT into 22 by doing that, and TT ends up as an overpair too often to do that, IMO.

I definitely see a lot of reason to play it slowly, especially early on in a structure this deep. You'll be more concealed when you do flop an overpair, and will sometimes win a big pot when you make a set.

But in this specific situation, I'm raising it up and looking to play this like a big pair rather than playing it like a small pair.

Out of curiosity, what do you do with JJ in this spot?

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be cool to hear some more discussion from those advocating a raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]I like the limp for exactly the reasons you stated (which is what I was trying to say earlier). But looks like I'm the only one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the desire to play it for set value, but you're basically turning TT into 22 by doing that

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, but raising turns it into 72o.

[seke2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand the desire to play it for set value, but you're basically turning TT into 22 by doing that

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, but raising turns it into 72o.

[/ QUOTE ]
Completely disagree. 72o doesn't flop an overpair 33% of the time.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
Completely disagree. 72o doesn't flop an overpair 33% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]It's a little extreme, I'll admit, but not THAT far off. Because even when you flop an overpair you are essentially playing to take it down on the flop because it's so vulnerable. You'll never win a big pot this deep with TT as an overpair.

[seke2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Completely disagree. 72o doesn't flop an overpair 33% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]It's a little extreme, I'll admit, but not THAT far off. Because even when you flop an overpair you are essentially playing to take it down on the flop because it's so vulnerable. You'll never win a big pot this deep with TT as an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, but it's not 72o, and it's not even close to that. You can't always win a big pot. You've got 1 limper ahead of you who seems like he's pretty weak and just the blinds behind you. This isn't some hugely awesome spot where you're likely to win a huge pot even when you get a set, it's going to be 4-way action at best.

I dunno, it's probably thin either way. I just think this is a spot where you're better off trying to win a small pot than trying to force a big one and risk usually losing a small one.

Like I said, it's real close...add 1 limper or take away our read on the limper or move Hero into CO or MP3 and I'm limping, I just think this is just barely on the other side of the line for me.

Why don't we just call it a 50/50 raise/limp and agree to disagree? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] You've at least convinced me it's not an automatic raise preflop.