1010 hand vs. bad flop, worse turn, early in MTT

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

Sam,

I disagree with both your posts.

[ QUOTE ]
Your pre-flop raise represents a big hand, so there's no sense is shutting down just because overcards fall. Tell him you have AK that got there, and most of the time you'll get a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really trying to get a jack to fold here? I think you are going to start to have to think about getting an opponent to put in his entire stack before we start talking about getting a better hand to fold on a flop like this.

And limping with JJ does not turn it into 22. Just because you limp it doesnt mean it loses value.

-Jason

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you really trying to get a jack to fold here? I think you are going to start to have to think about getting an opponent to put in his entire stack before we start talking about getting a better hand to fold on a flop like this.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure whether it's "correct," but my line on this flop (and stack sizes) is to make a pot-sized bet, then check/fold if the villain doesn't give it up. (Unless, obviously, I hit a set on the turn if he calls.)

My reasoning is that a full pot bet on this flop credibly represents protecting a pair of kings, but a half-sized pot bet looks too much like what it is, a standard c-bet. The idea is to maximize the possibility of taking down the pot right now, while minimizing the risk to lose any more of my stack. Also, this betting pattern is consistent with what I bet when I really do hold AK on a K high flop with draw possibilities.

You don't think a pot bet will induce sufficient probability to get a jack to fold?

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with both your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's never a good sign. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really trying to get a jack to fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, aren't you? I'm also pretty happy if AQ, TT, QQ, JQ, or KQ folds. (Yah, if KQ is calling pre-flop, it isn't going anywhere once it hits, but if it does that's fine.)

The larger point is that I'm often betting this flop with TT because I'm also betting it with KK, and check-folding scary/bad flops is pretty transparent. (Not that you are proposing this.)

Against a loose opponent who will call with Jx, or a tricky player who will raise with a worse hand, I agree that a c-fold may be in order. And if a c-bet would give me stack problems (for example if there were three callers, so any reasonable c-bet would be huge), it makes sense as well. That said, I do think a c-bet here is pretty standard, though as I write this I feel the need to go back and read CSC's "As If" post.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are going to start to have to think about getting an opponent to put in his entire stack before we start talking about getting a better hand to fold on a flop like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused by this. Are you saying that the hero isn't going to get a better hand to fold, so if he thinks he's ahead he needs to play that way?

[ QUOTE ]
And limping with JJ does not turn it into 22. Just because you limp it doesnt mean it loses value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right - I wasn't clear. I think the post that made me say this advocated playing JJ and TT for set value. That, IMHO, does rob them of value, and makes post-flop play much more difficult if you're four-handed.

[bhiatt]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure whether it's "correct," but my line on this flop (and stack sizes) is to make a pot-sized bet, then check/fold if the villain doesn't give it up. (Unless, obviously, I hit a set on the turn if he calls.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought as to how I should have played this hand. I'm UTG+1 and raised 3.5x PF, so an observant villain should put me on a high pair, AK at a minimum. The flop comes K-high and I bet the pot. It's a tough call for a J.

If he calls, I check the turn. If he checks behind, I reevaluate on the river.

If he bets the turn, I fold.

This line would have cost me less, given me a better shot at taking this down, and given me a better idea of where I stood.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure whether it's "correct," but my line on this flop (and stack sizes) is to make a pot-sized bet, then check/fold if the villain doesn't give it up. (Unless, obviously, I hit a set on the turn if he calls.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Note: You do not want to hit a set. Do you see why?

[bhiatt]

Similar situation in tonight's MTT, different post-flop strategy.

Hand #11747598-37 at Wed920pmA-024 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 08/Feb/06 21:57:01

nutzholder is at seat 5 with 3985.
bhiatt is at seat 6 with 1335.
The button is at seat 3.
Blinds: 15/30

bhiatt: Jd Jh

Pre-flop:

bhiatt raises to 105. spike19 folds. pds530 folds.
Jbrockin folds. rossd17 folds. -Zombie- folds.
POker wHO folds. danag calls. nutzholder calls.

Flop (board: 6s Kd Qd):

danag checks. nutzholder checks. bhiatt bets 315.
danag folds. nutzholder calls.

Plan is to check behind on the turn UI. Thoughts?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really trying to get a jack to fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, aren't you? I'm also pretty happy if AQ, TT, QQ, JQ, or KQ folds. (Yah, if KQ is calling pre-flop, it isn't going anywhere once it hits, but if it does that's fine.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing you are missing is that anyone loose enough to call some hand with a jack in it to a UTG+1 raise isn't going anywhere when they hit a pair, either*.

*exception: if the flop was AJx

edit: In the second hand, check behind on the flop, your hand sucks.