200NL - FR, QQ in EP vs Re-raise

[DonT77]

lots of good feedback here guys. I wish I could think as cogently as this in the heat of the moment. In retrospect I'm sold that a turn-fold is the right play, and I'm coming around to thinking that a flop fold may be the right play too.


Does anybody put in a 3rd raise here PF to say $50 (7 then 18 then 50)?
Potential benefits of a 3rd raise are that we might be able to get AK to laydown while possibly saving ourselves against KK/AA if the flop comes J-high or less (if he responds with a call or push) while we price out lower PPs from drawing to a set against us.

The bad aspects of a 3rd raise are that we are building a pot OOP against an unknown who might not laydown AK, and we are narrowing our own range which is rarely a good thing especially when OOP and near the bottom of our range. It also leads us to a tough situation ATF because it makes it more likely that villain will play well against us (by only giving us action when we are beat) given his positional advantage and our narrow range.

Thoughts?

[LearnedfromTV]

don i think the consensus will be that, especially in full ring, it's better to flat call QQ and usually flat call AA-KK than to fourbet QQ (and have to 4bet AA-KK also).

In six max if there's a lot of threebetting (as there often is), which implicitly widens your 4bet range (even if you haven't actually 4bet yet, but especially if you have), then 4betting QQ can work, especially if you are often 4betting AA-KK, AK, and occasionally other stuff (or he is likely to think you are).

I haven't played full ring in a long time, but I think I'd flat call this reraise like 95%+, especially given that you are UTG. A 4 bet is basically a bluff that'll never fold a better hand.

[Worldclass]

[ QUOTE ]
lots of good feedback here guys. I wish I could think as cogently as this in the heat of the moment. In retrospect I'm sold that a turn-fold is the right play, and I'm coming around to thinking that a flop fold may be the right play too.




Does anybody put in a 3rd raise here PF to say $50 (7 then 18 then 50)?
Potential benefits of a 3rd raise are that we might be able to get AK to laydown while possibly saving ourselves against KK/AA if the flop comes J-high or less (if he responds with a call or push) while we price out lower PPs from drawing to a set against us.

The bad aspects of a 3rd raise are that we are building a pot OOP against an unknown who might not laydown AK, and we are narrowing our own range which is rarely a good thing especially when OOP and near the bottom of our range. It also leads us to a tough situation ATF because it makes it more likely that villain will play well against us (by only giving us action when we are beat) given his positional advantage and our narrow range.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say a fold on the flop is correct. You raised from up front and were repopped. That will mean AA,KK and AK 80% of the time. Once the flop comes K high you are done with the hand.

I don't like putting in the 3rd raise with QQ here.

[SirArthur]

With no read, easy flop fold. I'm only proceeding with this hand against a donk in a FR game.

You beat nothing with your turn call, there's no draw or anything that he's semi bluffing.

It's doubtful he's double barreling this thing especially after his P/F raise.

[jalexone]

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I would say a fold on the flop is correct. You raised from up front and were repopped. That will mean AA,KK and AK 80% of the time. Once the flop comes K high you are done with the hand.

I don't like putting in the 3rd raise with QQ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this concensus? 80% of reraise at a FR NL is AA, KK, or AK? I am very inexperienced in NL ring games but that seems very tight.

[LearnedfromTV]

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I would say a fold on the flop is correct. You raised from up front and were repopped. That will mean AA,KK and AK 80% of the time. Once the flop comes K high you are done with the hand.

I don't like putting in the 3rd raise with QQ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this concensus? 80% of reraise at a FR NL is AA, KK, or AK? I am very inexperienced in NL ring games but that seems very tight.

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I was about to say people are probably v tight versus an utg raiser, then I realized that don wasn't actually utg, someone just said he was and I assumed it.

still, vs an ep raise, i'd guess the standard reraiser is weighted toward KK+, AK, especially given that you have QQ so there's only one of those left. I think 80% is extreme though; he can certainly have TT, JJ, AQ, bluff. the idea behind not 4betting is to keep the weaker hands around, b/c I imagine the standard call/shove vs a 4 bet range is pretty much KK+

[jalexone]

Thanks, your reply seems reasonable. And really, the quoted statement allowed that there are 20% of position reraises that are not a top three hands. I would have put at slightly over 30% but as you mentioned QQ is unlikely.