random play vs. aggressiveness (warning: wow turned into long post)

[alphatmw]

i've come across this fairly often playing with family/friends who are not serious poker players

there's pretty much 3 types of players
1. unexperienced players who play a loose-weak game
2. unexperienced players who play a flawed game (don't know intermediate strategy, obvious holes in their game) but play very unpredictably
3. relatively good players who know the fundamentals and intermediate strategy

type 1 players are obviously the biggest fish and easiest to win from. however, i've found that i MUCH rather player against type 3 than type 2. examples:

i played in a family tournament over the holidays. my uncle is a strong player who recently went to vegas and apparently won 3 out of 6 40 man tournaments or something. we're probably closely skilled. he plays a TAG game in the tournament because of the many loose calling station type beginners in the game.

my cousin also plays in the game. he is a solid but predictable player.

most the others (mom, aunts, other cousins) are typical beginners.

however, the wild card in the game was my dad. he's only played hold em a few times (everytime with the family) but his play was very erratic. he's very loose but isn't afraid to bet, like the other beginners. i've seen him c/r top 2 pair on the flop, call down an overpair (no bets himself), open push rivers with A8 on 9TJQA boards, and call all ins with 75o (he was deep stacked though). he rarely raises with strong hands PF. one hand:

i raise K9s from CO. he calls in BB. 832, 2 hearts. he check calls. turn jack. he checks and i check behind. river blank. he pushes for a lot. i cannot put him on any hand but a busted flush draw and actually call with my king high. he flips over JT. this was early on, before i had seen all the hands that i listed above but his image was essentially "crazy" at this point.

the point to all this is.. i felt i could read my uncle's hand nearly every time because he i could deduce his actions from what i would do myself. i felt i could outplay my cousin every time. but i could never figure out what my dad was doing. i would develop my read later on, but it took a long time since his play was so seemingly random that i couldn't pin it down to a TAG/LAG/trapping strategy.

is this to be expected of beginners who play in a loose, weird style? or is my game actually flawed in that i don't incorporate the same randomness? i now realize the best strategy against him was to wait for good hands as he was liable to pay you off, but against weird players like this, is this always the best strategy?

[GiantBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
is this to be expected of beginners who play in a loose, weird style? or is my game actually flawed in that i don't incorporate the same randomness? i now realize the best strategy against him was to wait for good hands as he was liable to pay you off, but against weird players like this, is this always the best strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely the toughest type of bad player to play against. You can make a lot of money off of them, but they do stuff which seems so crazy that it's hard to put too much of a read on them. I'd recommend not calling them down with just a high card, wait until you have a pretty solid hand, and let them bluff off all their chips into you. These players are a little easier to deal with in fixed limit. The fact that The System which Sklansky describes in his Tournament Poker FAP book is pretty much maniacal and takes a big edge off of expert players says something about the no limit structure.

Also, the fact that a good player must mix up his play to a reasonable extent says that this type of player is doing at least something right. In fact, if your dad just started playing his big hands more aggressively, he's become a noticably better player.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

Play mostly straightforward and a bit weak-tight in small pots until you get a read.

He does sound like an easily trappable player whose line depend upon the signals his opponent is sending out, though, and my goal is to induce the huge river overbet.

[monkover]

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i now realize the best strategy against him was to wait for good hands as he was liable to pay you off, but against weird players like this, is this always the best strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes this pretty much is the best strategy! These kind of players will always pay you off. I´m sure you know Gus Hansen, this is why he´s so difficult to play against: He´s a maniac but knows when to lay the hands down because he can tell when he´s beat.
If you see an interview with pros who play against gus on tv then they´ll all tell you that they just wait for the strongest hands that can stand a lot of pressure...
If you play against a person like that suited connectors etc go down in value and hands like AK go up in value.

cheers

[TC Franks]

Why are you trying to take money from your mom? LOL

It's a family game, just have fun.

[GiantBuddha]

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It's a family game, just have fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice. Poker is war. If you pull your punches against your family, you'll develop bad habits.

I'm only a little bit kidding.

[alphatmw]

my aunt asked me if their actions were timed and i explained how someone could put the clock on someone else. then i joked that we might be the first family game to ever use this.

[TC Franks]

I realize you're being light-hearted as well, but we are essentially saying the same thing. I'm saying play it right, but don't worry if someone draws out to a flush with 2-9 diamonds or something through your steady raises.

Not much you can do.

Still, I wouldn't re-raise my mom with the nuts just to get an extra few bucks either. I'll leave that action to you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GiantBuddha]

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I realize you're being light-hearted as well, but we are essentially saying the same thing. I'm saying play it right, but don't worry if someone draws out

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you didn't mistake my tone. People misunderstand lighthearted jokes too often on the internet and I'm glad that didn't happen here.

That said, I do think there's value to trying to figure out how to play against a relative beginner. I'm pretty sure alpha didn't blow his whole bankroll on a family tourney (you didn't, did you?). But no matter what limit you play, every now and then a player who has no idea what he's doing will sit down in your game, and will play one of these ways. Sometimes they'll also play very weak tight. But knowing how to handle the loose cannons who just want to gamble it up can be very profitable. Overall, your predictable opponents will be easier to play against than your unpredictable ones. The Fundamental Theorem of Poker tells us as much. But this kind of opponent can be very exploitable, mostly by the means already listed.

It's easy to think you'll only see beginners at the $.50/1 tables, but I've seen them in $15-30 limit games, $10K buy in NL games, and I'll bet a few billionaires sit down with Doyle and drop a load of cash on him from time to time. Be ready for these gifts people give you when that holiday time comes around.