Do you ever not complete the SB in unraised pots?

[DPK99]

Generally speaking (no reads on what the BB will do), what is the difference between this situation and that of heads-up play, besides the SB not having position after the flop here, whereas the SB does have position in heads-up? If heads-up SB play warrents at least a call with anything but 32o, then what is the minimum hand to call with when out of position here with no callers before you?

[4CardStraight]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally speaking (no reads on what the BB will do), what is the difference between this situation and that of heads-up play, besides the SB not having position after the flop here, whereas the SB does have position in heads-up? If heads-up SB play warrents at least a call with anything but 32o, then what is the minimum hand to call with when out of position here with no callers before you?

[/ QUOTE ]

So this shows a misunderstanding of the value of position. Do yourself a favor. Go to this site http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...hp?order=value and look at the expected value sets BY POSITION. cut and paste them into excel and sum them by position. You can find that (in cash limit poker) each position has a EV value. The button is worth something like a fifth of a big bet, and having the blinds costs you something like a sixth of a big bet, on average (in addition to the cost of paying the blind)

So what is the value of the difference between being in the button versus being in the small blind?

About the difference between a starting hand like AJo and a hand like K4s.

Do we play K4s ? sure sometimes, but generally absent other information it should be open folded. You will also notice that even great hands like AA or KK are truly "worth less" in the blinds than they are when in late position.

Keeping your stats in poker tracker will also help you isolate this information, and even tho the site I list is cash limit poker, I submit that the information there is surely relevant to MTT no limit poker, and perhaps the chart undervalues some suited connectors or pocket pairs due to the higher implied odds involved in no limit, but what is helpful is seeing how hands actually fare, on average, against real players doing real player things like folding bad hands and raising speculative ones, which can never be obtained using computer calculations through things like pokerstove.


Me personally, I complete in the SB only with true SC (no gap, or one gap if both above 8) and low pocket pairs. Otherwise, I either decide my hand is premium and raise, or I fold.

[DPK99]

Very interesting. Thanks. Now, is there a way to compare EV to the pot odds being offered so that, even if the EV is negative, we know what odds we need to make a good call?

[mxp2004]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally speaking (no reads on what the BB will do), what is the difference between this situation and that of heads-up play, besides the SB not having position after the flop here, whereas the SB does have position in heads-up? If heads-up SB play warrents at least a call with anything but 32o, then what is the minimum hand to call with when out of position here with no callers before you?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are several differences between heads up play and entering a multiway pot from the SB. The first difference is that 8 or 9 hands were dealt in addition to yours. The more hands dealt, the more likely it is that there is one out there which is substantially better than yours.

In addition, other than the big blind, everyone else who is still playing when the action gets to you in the SB has entered the pot voluntarily. Thus, in contrast to playing heads up where you are up against only one random hand, in this situation, you are up against multiple hands that have some playing value. Your hand should, too, if you want to get involved.

[4CardStraight]

Not Exactly, but I think it definitely is an interesting question.

What I do is think about it just a little differently. Sure completing in the SB only leaves one more person left to act, so the odds of you being raised preflop after limping are less.... But if you look at the charts, the SB BB and UTG positions are all really quite similar as far as which hands are +EV versus -EV. So I use a similar standard for completing from the small blind as I do for opening from UTG. Given that the position itself is going to cost me on average a little bit of a bet, I discount the fact that I am getting a reduced price to complete, and generally am TRYING to simply play the same types of hands from the Small blind as I would from UTG. SO ten handed in an unraised pot I will still likely only play something like 10% of hands from the SB. Now it is still a part of my game I am working on and I know I still play too loose.

keep in mind that the pot odds you are being offered have to be discounted due to the fact that you will be out of position on every single street. your opponents will be able to make better decisions after seeing your action, and will be able to get more money in in hands they are ahead, and lose less money in hands they are behind.

I think just completing in sb is a significant leak in a lot of peoples games. Probably raise somehting like the top 7percent hands, and complete the more speculative hands like suited connectors, yielding a total play of something just over 10percent of the hands when you are in sb is probably about right. Obviously it depends on the tables aggression and whatnot

Think of the blinds as just costing you a little bit of chips EVERY hand, as opposed to being a part of your bet when you are in the blinds. You get to choose wether you want to PUT MONEY IN THE POT with crappy cards, in crappy position, against a lot of people. All of a sudden the 8 to 1 you are getting on more money doesnt look so good.

Especially with hands that can be easily dominated costing you even more money when you do hit something like tpsk

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally speaking (no reads on what the BB will do), what is the difference between this situation and that of heads-up play, besides the SB not having position after the flop here, whereas the SB does have position in heads-up?

[/ QUOTE ]This is ALL about position, and demonstrates the great power in position.

[DPK99]

Thinking about the expected value sets chart a little more, I wanted to ask if these include the blinds already invested for the BB and SB calculations? For example, everytime the BB folds preflop, does that loss calculate into the BB EV chart?

[fasteddy1970]

I'm a fairly tight player and I'd like the game to go a few orbits before a few of the observant players come to this conclusion. If I'm folding my SB when blinds are still only $20. (on pokerstars) aren't I pretty much announcing how tight I am? Isn't almost worth it to complete for $10. and not give that info?

I know that when I see a player fold his sb especially when the stacks are full and the blind is tiny, I make a note that he's tight. I've rarely been proven wrong in making that quick appraisal.

[beenben]

I try to follow the raise or fold rule. I raise if I have a better than average hand or if stack sizes and player dynamics dictate a raise.

[beenben]

I wonder why MSCAces hasn't replied to this thread?