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#1
12-28-2006, 01:40 AM
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I have to raise here... right?
Should I raise to drive out the flush draws?
Poker Stars Limit Holdem Ring game Limit: $0.50/$1 10 players Converter Pre-flop: (10 players) hero is UTG+1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG calls, hero calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB checks. Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 6 players) SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>, 5 folds. Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to hero. Results: Final pot: 4BB 
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#5
12-28-2006, 01:51 AM
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Re: I have to raise here... right?
[ QUOTE ]
YOU HAVE A SET WHO CARES ABOUT FLUSH DRAWS. The raise is fine btw. [/ QUOTE ] Those flush draws are going to chase you to hell and back. Check/call the flop. Bet/raise the turn if it's an offsuit. Learn about pot control.
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#6
12-28-2006, 02:23 AM
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Re: I have to raise here... right?
I see this line more and more often and I have used it myself sometimes. However I always bet and raise a set into a coordinated flop. For this purpose my definition of a coordinated flop is one where a player could be holding a one card draw to a hand that beats my set or there are overcards to my set. The exception to that would be if the pot was already so large the villain(s) drawing would have proper odds to call and the board was extra scary ( 3 to a flush or straight flush- higher trips for ex) I would expect someone with more math than I could define it more precisely.
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#7
12-28-2006, 02:51 AM
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Re: I have to raise here... right?
i call and raise the turn, we are way far ahead here and want to win a big pot, and flush draws aren't folding anyway, so let's let other crap hands come along and build a pot for us.
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#8
12-28-2006, 03:06 AM
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Re: I have to raise here... right?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] YOU HAVE A SET WHO CARES ABOUT FLUSH DRAWS. The raise is fine btw. [/ QUOTE ] Those flush draws are going to chase you to hell and back. Check/call the flop. Bet/raise the turn if it's an offsuit. Learn about pot control. [/ QUOTE ] I assume you are referring to pot size when you are saying "pot control." Having said that, what does controlling the size of the pot have to do with anything in this situation? We have a huge equity edge in this spot so really the question is how to best exploit it. I personally raise the flop also, although it has nothing to do with hand protection.
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#9
12-28-2006, 03:07 AM
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Re: I have to raise here... right?
Well. The flush draws probably aren't folding but if they want to ride along they have to pay the fare right? We are building a pot either way if they stay and neither way if they fold. So you are advocating we let them draw cheap because they might not pay the freight? I am suggesting that in the long run villains who pay too much to draw will pay us off and we will make more than we will by letting them draw with proper odds. Not betting the set is simply a slow play IMO and needs an uncoordinated board to make the slow play more profitable than betting. I admit I can't do the math with accuracy so my position is subject to being convinced otherwise.
EDITED TO ADD: This board offers the possibility of straight draws, flush draws and one overcard to make a higher set. Add to that the times a higher pair is out against us and will hit. I think that is a strong case for putting the pressure on here and not allowing cheap draws. Save the slow plays for times when they need to draw 2 cards or are drawing nearly dead.
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#10
12-28-2006, 03:23 AM
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Re: I have to raise here... right?
[ QUOTE ]
Well. The flush draws probably aren't folding but if they want to ride along they have to pay the fare right? We are building a pot either way if they stay and neither way if they fold. So you are advocating we let them draw cheap because they might not pay the freight? I am suggesting that in the long run villains who pay too much to draw will pay us off and we will make more than we will by letting them draw with proper odds. Not betting the set is simply a slow play IMO and needs an uncoordinated board to make the slow play more profitable than betting. I admit I can't do the math with accuracy so my position is subject to being convinced otherwise. [/ QUOTE ] An uncoordinated board means bet the [carebears] out of this hand. With a suited board, nobody is paying too much here whether we raise and make it 4;1 or call. The question is are we paying too much to make them call correctly? It's 8:1 to us. We make it 4:1 to them if we raise. Stalemate. Control the pot and make them pay on the turn if a non-flush card hits. Then bet your A$$ off Is that so hard to comprehend?
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