Planning stack-a-donk with KK but turn is a [censored] A!!

[Sir Winalot]

It's 3-handed and I've been quite aggro lately, lots of raising on button and c-betting. BB is fairly new to the table, came less 20 than hands ago so no real reads.

20NL on iPoker network

Hero ($23.2)
BB ($24.5)
Button ($32.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Button folds, Hero raises to $1, BB calls

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2)
Hero bets $1.6, SB raises to $3.2, Hero calls

<font color="blue">Lol, I'm so smart. I'm gonna call and c/r turn. Should I just 3-bet to 12-15? </font>

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($8.4)
Hero checks, SB bets 7, Hero raises all-in

<font color="blue"> 1/4 cards I didn't wan't to see, but I'll keep up with my plan. Thoughts on this?

Any alternative turn lines?</font>

[corsakh]

Who was the donk? :-D

ps I'd probably fold.

[Warteen]

You still have a lot of money in front of you on the turn. Why are you insistent on getting it in the pot on that turn card? You have to be willing to change your plan in case of such a disaster.
With your play here you have represented a strong ace. There is no worse hand that will call you, and few better hands that will fold (only weak aces). I like a call on the turn and re-evaluate on the river. (Or possibly even fold the turn if you believe he has an ace, which seems likely.)

[Genz]

I reraise the flop to 10. If he pushes, I fold. I like to punish resteal-attempts executed with a min-raise.

As played: ugh. I bet 6 and fold to a raise.

[Kyriefurro]

1) The stack-a-donk line requires the pressence of a donk. Since you don't have a read on villain, that pressence is not assured, which makes trying to take this line a pretty bad idea.

2) That flop is really really dry. Personally, when I don't have a read I try to assume that villain has at least a minimum level of intelligence/skill (if I'm wrong and he's a complete moron, I can always stack him later - but if I'm right, I'll save myself some painful tuition during my learning process). Villain's lack of preflop action makes me think that an overpair is unlikely. There are no draws on this flop. All this means that it looks like the flop hit villain fairly hard. He's got at least a 9, and maybe a 3 or even 99.

3) The turn is the second worst card you can see (behind another 9). Assuming villain doesn't have a 3 or 9, it's the one card villain would likely draw to, and he just hit it. I'm guessing that your odds of still being ahead here are somewhere around 25% or less.

So....lead this turn, and if villain raises you again, it's an easy fold. If he calls, then I think I can find a check/call for a reasonable sized bet on the river.

[Paul Thomson]

I disagree with alot of the advice given in this thread.

FLOP: Whether to Push or Not. Advantage to pushing now is that if the villain has TT or JJ, then you're not giving him a chance to fold if a scare card comes on the turn. Disadvantage of pushing is that the board is dry, so he's not going to put you on a draw.

I like just calling on the flop because the villains miniraise could easily be 88-44 and an information raise, so I don't want to blow him off the hand.

TURN: I like a check-call on the turn best. I check to give a chance to bluff at the scare card.

RIVER: I'm check folding.

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
I reraise the flop to 10. If he pushes, I fold. I like to punish resteal-attempts executed with a min-raise.

As played: ugh. I bet 6 and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does reraising punish steal attempts? I think it does just the opposite.

Why would we ever fold on this flop? It hardly gets much better.

Although leading the turn allows us to play the hand easier, do you think it's the highest EV play?

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
1) The stack-a-donk line requires the pressence of a donk. Since you don't have a read on villain, that pressence is not assured, which makes trying to take this line a pretty bad idea.

2) That flop is really really dry. Personally, when I don't have a read I try to assume that villain has at least a minimum level of intelligence/skill (if I'm wrong and he's a complete moron, I can always stack him later - but if I'm right, I'll save myself some painful tuition during my learning process). Villain's lack of preflop action makes me think that an overpair is unlikely. There are no draws on this flop. All this means that it looks like the flop hit villain fairly hard. He's got at least a 9, and maybe a 3 or even 99.

3) The turn is the second worst card you can see (behind another 9). Assuming villain doesn't have a 3 or 9, it's the one card villain would likely draw to, and he just hit it. I'm guessing that your odds of still being ahead here are somewhere around 25% or less.

So....lead this turn, and if villain raises you again, it's an easy fold. If he calls, then I think I can find a check/call for a reasonable sized bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) the stack a donk line doesn't require the presence of a donk.

2) your right the flop is DRY. The villain almost NEVER has a 3 here (unless it's A3s). Sure he could have 99, but I think most villains reraise that preflop in this situation.

3) I disagree with your odds here. Sure Villain could have an Ace. But it's also for this very reason the perfect scare card to bluff with.

CONCLUSION: Your conclusion is backward as far as I'm concerned. By leading the turn you allow the Villain to play perfectly, he folds all worse hands and calls with all better ones. Leading turn only allows u to play the hand easier.

And as far as your River plan goes. If you bet turn and get call, than leading the river is always better than checking, if you plan to check-call...do you see why?

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I reraise the flop to 10. If he pushes, I fold. I like to punish resteal-attempts executed with a min-raise.

As played: ugh. I bet 6 and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does reraising punish steal attempts? I think it does just the opposite.

Why would we ever fold on this flop? It hardly gets much better.

Although leading the turn allows us to play the hand easier, do you think it's the highest EV play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: I recommended a fold to a push, because for some reason I can't recall, I thought we were holding QQ. It would probably still be a marginal fold, but with KK I wouldn't fold here. I think most of my questions and reasoning is still valid, though. /Edit


Could you explain, why you think that reraising rewards steal attempts on this board?

My reasoning was:
As already has been stated: the board is very dry so villain can easily assume that we didn't hit and just have overcards. So he tries to take it away from us. I have no reads on villain, so I don't know if he is the kind of guy who will bluff his stack away on further streets with nothing. Moreover I don't want to see an overcard. This either makes him stop bluffing or a better hand. So I want to end the hand right there on the flop and am gratefull that he tried to steal from me so I got one more bet from him.

About leading the turn after calling the raise on the flop: I don't think we can call the hand down. We have nasty reverse implied odds. So I think the question is, if betting is better than (check/)folding. I think there is a good chance that villain does not have an A but puts us on overcards so the A is a scarecard for him. So I think we have fold equity here. In addition, we have a chance to have the best hand, which might be quite low. Wether the FE and the chance to have the best hand combined are enough to make the bet +EV depends mostly on the probability that we have to call a bet on the river when we check and how often this is a bluff. If he will check through most of his mediocre holdings so we see a SD when we have the best hand often or don't loose additional money too often on the river, I think betting is +EV. If we will face a bet on the river so often that we can't be confident to fold, it's very close. This is obviously very read dependant.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
You still have a lot of money in front of you on the turn. Why are you insistent on getting it in the pot on that turn card? You have to be willing to change your plan in case of such a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds a bit like tournament mentality. IMO that turn card helped only A9/A3 in villains range. I don't agree that the card was a total disaster.

[ QUOTE ]
Why does reraising punish steal attempts? I think it does just the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because we're letting them away too easily when they might fire again on turn?

[ QUOTE ]
Why would we ever fold on this flop? It hardly gets much better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm felting this hand on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
CONCLUSION: Your conclusion is backward as far as I'm concerned. By leading the turn you allow the Villain to play perfectly, he folds all worse hands and calls with all better ones. Leading turn only allows u to play the hand easier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
1) The stack-a-donk line requires the pressence of a donk. Since you don't have a read on villain, that pressence is not assured, which makes trying to take this line a pretty bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
Stack-a-donk = call a flop raise and c/r or raise AI on turn. No donk needed, but it's safer to do against a donk.