Having a problem with my MTT game recently....

[WellThatsFine]

i'm more of a lurker around here, but i figured this was the place to get the advice i need, so here goes....

at this point i am strictly a mtt player online, and while i have good runs and bad runs, my situation now has me kinda puzzled/worried. i normally play mid to low limit mtts, usually 11-55, with some 109's and sunday majors every so often. more often than not i find myself able to accumulate chips early rather easily by people just giving their money away with bad draws, over pairs that can't be good, etc. but after the say the second break or maybe a little before, if i don't catch a real hand and have it hold i just get ground down to nothing and am forced to move in and get the inevitable call from the big stack and i'm bounced out once more on, or around the bubble. i have tried playing more aggro during the middle stages, attempting to steal more unopened pots, restealing if i feel the situation calls for it, etc. but i feel like i have to be doing something wrong. there is no good reason i should bubble 9 outta 10 mtts consistantly. i really dont' know what i can do to accumulate more during the mid stages of mtts if i am card dead, or not having my hands hold. i know that sometimes the best hand doens't win blah blah blah and i accept that point, but i sometimes get to the point where i just stop trying to steal all together becasue anytime i do i get moved in and i can't just call it off when i have invested so much time into the game already, not to mention its just bad play. as of now i have been playing many more 11 180's and 22 180's, along with mtts 11-33 buy in, and trying to work on this problem i have, but i really can't find any style that helps me to accumulate chips, unless i obv get a few hands here and there and get paid off on them. any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

[beenben]

You've got the right idea to be aggressive during the middle stages- it's folded to you in mid to late position, you've got a tight image, no cards. raise. easy fold to a re-raise. if people are going to come back over the top then try to wait for some cards and go all the way with the hand. e.g. A9+ KQ, pairs 55+.

You cannot wait until your M is so small that when you do make your move you get called by big stacks. when you're M is 10 or less, start looking for a spot to push b/c it was folded to you and the table and player dynamics make it relatively safe.

[RetiredAt22]

You sound like your starting out like i did: playin a whole line up of different buy-ins. Id pay the 3/rebuy all the way up to the wednesday 300+20 whith no real rhyme or reason, and no proof that i was good enough for micro tournies. I just figured that since i killed 1000nl, i would destroy tournies as well. It takes more than patience i soon found out. My advice to you: start with a bankroll: 800-1000 bucks, and play the 3/rebuys, 5, 8, 9, 10 dollar freezeouts, and keep track of each tournament result. Make an excell file or a word document, and write down your hands that were significant. (AK race against 44, when you doubled up in stage 5, 78 suited when you had a matusow blowup and bluffed the river) take note of each way you wwere bounced from the tourny, try and see if your game has any patterns or holes to fill. Your large bankroll will allow you to see if you are in fact able to beat lower MTTs, if you cant beat the $10, then any time you play a larger tourny, your relying too much on a run of lucky hands.

The lower stakes might be lame to you, cause the excitement of the prospect of winning 15k is gone, but at least you get cheap practice in. right now you say your cashing in 10% of your tournies? make your goal for this week 15%, next week 18%, and go up.

you should be able to play around 5-7 mtts a day if you got the time and patience, (or the lack of a social life, like me posting on 2+2 on Xmas morning.) so your results can come back quickly.

Strategy wise: play normally, dont reinvent the wheel. i prefer resteals than normal steals. try and find that one player who seems to be taking a few too many pots per round, and keep an eye on the Rocks at the table who fold a lot. you can target their blinds with pretty much any hand.

[Vraket]

[ QUOTE ]
right now you say your cashing in 10% of your tournies? make your goal for this week 15%, next week 18%, and go up.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's an advice that might have a negative effect on his ROI. TOP 3% > ITM %.

[RetiredAt22]

VrakeT, how so?

what does your little 3% > ITM mean?

if i dont understand it, chances are the OG poster wont either. please explain.

[Vraket]

[ QUOTE ]
VrakeT, how so?

what does your little 3% > ITM mean?

if i dont understand it, chances are the OG poster wont either. please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

It means that it is more important to finnish in the top 3 than reaching the money.

Playing with the goal to raise your ITM percentage is wrong since the money is in the top3. I could easily raise my ITM percentage, but it would cost me a lot of money in the long run since I would win less tournaments.

[RetiredAt22]

I see, so your saying its truly a better strategy to play for the large stack in the mid stages of the game than to "Survive". I agree with that.

I usually like to take the approach of Suriving until the money, and then gettin saucy when my M is below 10. Theres many instances where you go from short stack in the tourny to comfortably in the pack after two double ups.

[cm86]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually like to take the approach of Suriving until the money

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a big part of your problem right there. I have the same problem as you, though I play smaller stake MTTs, and make the money about 1/5 times, yet never make it deep. I've recently started playing pretty much exclusively <$5 buy ins because making less than top 3, or sometimes the FT, means absolutely nothing money wise. If making the money in the 109 is important to you, you should not be playing that tournament. In general, I think you should only play stakes where only making the top 3 means anything.

There is a difference between understanding all the money is in the top three, and having those payouts be the only ones that mean anything to you.

As for having trouble increasing your stack after the first hour or so, this is also my biggest problem. I suggest watching some HHs from pokerXfactor that feature some of the players here. For me, it just assured me that I was making the best decisions for the most part (which you begin to doubt during bad streaks) and also helps you determine which players chips you can steal/resteal.

[WellThatsFine]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got the right idea to be aggressive during the middle stages- it's folded to you in mid to late position, you've got a tight image, no cards. raise. easy fold to a re-raise. if people are going to come back over the top then try to wait for some cards and go all the way with the hand. e.g. A9+ KQ, pairs 55+.

You cannot wait until your M is so small that when you do make your move you get called by big stacks. when you're M is 10 or less, start looking for a spot to push b/c it was folded to you and the table and player dynamics make it relatively safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand what ur saying, and appreciate all the responses, but i can't just be looking to push can i? i feel i generally play very well postflop and i like to play hands out in the middle stages, i'm not looking to just shove it in there and hope that my hands hold up, because more times than not something stupid happens and i lose to rr flush or rr straight etc. for example, say i raise the button with something like kqss in an unopened pot, making it a standard 3x or 3.5x the bb. also lets say its 150/300 blinds, and i have about t4200...sb folds, bb makes it t1200, what is my play supposed to be here, push and pray i'm 50/50 and hope to win? more times than not i'm dominated right? my problem is i get into like 2 of these types of situations really close in time, and unable to pick up a hand in between, and i am immediately short when the blinds go up again. and i just go into push and fold mode until its bubble time then i inevitabley get called by the big stack who has no choice but to call my 3k push when the blinds are 300/600, and i'm gg for that mtt. its extremely, extremely frustrating, because i believe that i can beat these mtts, and it just seems i am bubbling.

also my goal is not to increase my ITM% per say, but i was using it as a jumping off point. i figured if i can have a higher ITM% then i would in turn get more frequent top 3 finishes as well, because once your in the money it seems you half the people dont' care anymore and are just looking to chip up, and i try and snap them off right there. thanks for the advice any more would be much appreciated.

[StudentOfThaGame]

I'm in the same situation as you myself. Here are my thoughts:

I find that I consistently build playable stacks without much bother until the mid to late levels say, 300 600 levels onwards in stars rebuys for example. I then start to fall behind from here and bleed chips by getting my steals reraised and also losing continuation bets when I've missed with say AK or 99 etc. being called, then not wanting to follow through on later streets risking a high % of my stack with Ace high or 2nd/3rd pair. Losing these chips means that I often end up in push fold mode which takes away all my post flop play and I end up playing somewhat mechanically, pushing in with position etc.

I think one of the most important things to focus on to avoid this is fold equity and resteals as you can increase your stack if you pick good spots with zero showdowns just by using your stack fold equity. E.g. if you think some one has a large raising range in LP go ahead and RR or push on them with a wider range of hands in order to try and take down the pots Preflop. This appears like HUGE strength and you'll be surprised how often you take the pot uncontested, if not you have position throughout the hand, unless you pushed PF obv.

This in turn gives you time to wait for premium hands and less frequent need to steal in LP, (although you must continue to do this if only to set up the times you have a real hand in LP and can happily call anyone's push OTT of your raise Preflop), and more time to express your post flop edge.

Also work on trying to add in VERY occasional raises with marginal hands (say once or twice a level at most) that flop well and are unlikely dominated if called, i.e. suited connectors, at tighter tables from MP as players are far less likely to see these as steals and you will be able to represent more strength post flop if you are called and confident in your post flop play.

Try mixing up your raise sizes also. Say instead of committing 3,200 @ 400 800 make it 2,000. If you think about it you'll get same information committing less of your stack, you'll also become harder to read and more able to control pot size post flop.

Obviously there's no quick fix guide to going deep in tournies but I think the above points are relevant in order to progress further.

Hope this helps and gl, please let me know if you disagree/have any questions/