25NL Pair and OESD vs. Maniac Donk

[Chris_ca]

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It's still overbetting the pot, you have less than 50% pot equity against any random cards, his range is really wide.

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1,070,190 games 0.203 secs 5,271,871 games/sec

Board: 5c 2c 3s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 70.1193 % 67.12% 03.00% { 5h4h }
Hand 2: 29.8807 % 26.88% 03.00% { random }

[SirNeb]

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Ok, in an earlier hand I had JJ on the button and raised to $1.25. He reraised to $3.5. I pushed my remaining $17 and he called with A-3 offsuit. He hit an ace and stacked me. this should give you an idea how easy he will go to the felt with a hand that you would think anyone with a decent brain would realize is badly beaten.

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But is he the type that will do this after seeing the flop? I'm assuming your scenario is preflop. Preflop with these hands, you are ahead but not as much as I would like. It's basically KK vs AK situation. You dominate him but he has a good chance for an outs.

If he is a maniac postflop also, I would much rather see the flop then shove when there is no overcard. Because in that case, he almost have absolutely no outs, and he is probably drawing dead. Then again, it's definitely +EV for your preflop play against his range. I have nothing against that due to your read.

One last comment on this thread, these maniac can sometimes be hard to deal with. We see it all the time, but the problem is that they force us to gamble. Yes we are ahead most of the time, but very often these same maniacs are the ones with deep stacks because they get lucky. My take on how to handle them is to play them postflop and play them with MADE hands(not draws), where there is practically little luck involved. When I am ahead, I am ahead 80/20 or more. This become very profitable very fast. Of course my assumption is that they are as maniac-like postflop and preflop. Most maniacs are not as maniac postflop unfortunately hence you need to +EV gamble. ;(

[Chris_ca]

I think the way to play them is to gamble more often not less. You know they play marginal hands strongly, so all your good hands turn into great ones when you are playing heads up against them. Finding folds against these guys is how they build big stacks, not through them being lucky.

[SirNeb]

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It's still overbetting the pot, you have less than 50% pot equity against any random cards, his range is really wide.

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1,070,190 games 0.203 secs 5,271,871 games/sec

Board: 5c 2c 3s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 70.1193 % 67.12% 03.00% { 5h4h }
Hand 2: 29.8807 % 26.88% 03.00% { random }

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There're some logic here that is counter intuitive to me. You are RISKING your stack for a 8 dollar pot. Pot equity is for calculating what % of the existing pot is yours. So if you are 90% pot equity, the 6+ish dollars of the 8 dollar pot is yours. While that other 10% of the time, you will lose 10% of your stack. See the problem? Therefore, that is the reason why I say it's not a good play.

If you are thinking you have the best hand(which might be true), then you are shoving for your pair 5 value, not because you have outs. By risking your stack(volunteerily put it in), if he somehow had a made hand, you are risking your stack for 0 outs perhaps? And for what? 8 dollar pot? Or a relatively questionable chance for his stack?

If your read is correct, if he goes all in and your turn to decide to act. Okay now you can think pot equity, because there is DEAD MONEY in the pot already. For a winning player, no matter how good your odds are to win a pot, you never put your stack for dead money unless the EXISTING pot is worth the risk. Yes, your chance of winning might be HUGE, unless you have the absolute nuts, you should never make such a play.

You should really think about that. Because these plays can be very costly and cause HUGE variance(leaks most definitely). Anyways, you can take my advice for what it's worth, I'm a learning player also so not everything I say is correct. Maybe someone else can make a better advice. Good Luck!

[AceLuby]

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This piece of advice is pure gold:

You don't have to play every draw you flop

Your TP is never good against this raise and you might be drawing to 6 outs instead of 8 (clubs) and your 2 pr puts 4 to the str8. I fold to the big resistance. If he's being super aggro I would wait for a bigger hand/bigger flop because he's just waiting to give you $$$$. I'd fold the flop.

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You want to fold a draw and top pair, getting great implied odds against someone who will go to the felt with middle pair here. He's a maniac remember.

I think I'm a solid favorite against his range here, because his range includes absolutely nothing.

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I understand his range is extremely wide, but you talk about implied odds and throw them out the door by pushing. You have no FE (you said that already) and he's not folding any piece of this (str8 draw, flush draw, whatever), so you could be ahead now, but you could also be WAY BEHIND. Just because someone is super aggro maniac style doesn't mean they don't catch hands either. Even if he has just overcards you are not a 'solid favorite' you are a slight favorite. And we shouldn't gamble w/ this type of player more, we should go in as a 4:1 favorite more (which should be no problem if he's calling AI's w/ A3o). I just think you tilted a little here. Your draw is only ok and your TP can be easily beaten. But by all means gamble it up.

[Chris_ca]

Ok well he showed K :hearts: 4 :clubs:
I was 55% to win and 31% to tie, only 14% to lose on the flop.
He rivered me.

I know my knowledge of the outcome affects how I debate the hand now but I really think you guys probably let yourself get run over by these guys too often. This guy had a $175 stack at a 25NL b/c he was making people fold over and over again. I saw what was happened and decided to push an spot that might seem mariginal to some but is really profitable against villian.

[emeraldice]

so in most situations best move here (assuming u call PF) would be a bet fold?
against a villain like this, who might raise u huge with absolutely nothing here (and probably will the majority of the time...), should you
A) be folding preflop
B) be calling but folding unless u flop pretty huge
C) be bet/folding
D) check/calling

i just think he is raising u here a LOT and you cant stand the pressure, so i probably fold PF since ur basically gonna have to flop huge OOP.

[Imrahil]

Guys, in a way it doesn't matter who villain is in this spot. We're playing for equity here. Sure, there are better spots to get our money in against this donk. But this is a cash game, not a tournament. Say OPs play here makes him $4 on average. That may be small compared to the money he will make on average against this donk but it is still money. If villain had KK here, hero would have 13 outs and be about 47% to win so his play would be fine. OPs play wouldn't be extremely +EV against this villain but that doesn't matter. Just try and extract any money you can from this guy whether it's $1 or $50.

[emeraldice]

what do u think about the preflop call from sb? is it pretty standard against a total donk like this and a standard fold against a solid player? i generally play pretty tight oop.

[Imrahil]

I would call with 54s from the SB to a minraise from any player.