Hold'em game preservation - limit vs. no limit.

[TripleH68]

This post is inspired by my recent readings of Inside the Poker Mind and Poker Essays III.

I trotted up to Detroit last night(Thursday) to play limit hold'em at Motor City Casino. Upon arrival I was told the 10/20 game broke up around 10:30pm. The only 5/10 game broke up around 1:00am and I was stuck playing in a miserably slow 3/6 game, also the only one going.

At a slow moment I went up to talk to the floor about the health of the limit games, specifically 10/20. I was told "it is unusual for the 10/20 to break so early, but it is probably just because of curiosity of the new game."
So what is the new game? "200-500 No limit."
Why have you decided to offer this game? "Well at times we have six tables of 50-200NL going and we don't have any open tables for other games, so we were hoping to attract some of those players to this game."
Huh? Doesn't that seem counter-productive? "What do you mean?"
I just hope some of your players don't get cleaned out too quickly in this bigger game, because then you will have empty tables. Don't you think? "Well. I don't know."

Granted I was not talking to the manager of the room, just a person working the floor on overnights. But wow. Are limit games going to just disappear? How bad is it getting in other parts of the country? I guess limit poker on TV would be pretty boring.

Through this night at MCC there was a stream of generally young kids in baseball caps marching up to the table with $100 like they were ready to take on the world at NL. By 1am there is only a 3/6 limit game while there were four full NL games going. (We are heading into Christmas weekend?)

Thanks for the read.

[freedom18]

ya dood switch to NL =[ gotta follow the fish not fish follow u [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[LasVegasMichael]

Come to Vegas to see this in FULL swing. LHE is truly a dying game here (especially the middle limits). Nor more then 4 years ago, NL cash games pretty much ceased to exist except at the highest levels, now 1/2NL is the new 3/6 or 4/8 and 2/5 is the new 10/20 or even 30/60. Often, a poker room on a weekday won't even get a LHE game going until mid morning, whereas NL is going 24/7.

Yes, Matmuth made a very good point about NL being a game where the dead money get lost quicker and thus, it would not be the "main game" ever, but what he did not (and could not) anticipate was the TV Poker Boom that created the current state of poker. 5 years ago Vegas casinos were closing poker rooms left and right, whereas in the past two years, 30 new rooms have opened, leaving only 2-3 casinos on or near the strip without poker rooms, versus the other way around.

LHE is dying accross the board, but it will not die completely. In fact, I do think that this poker boom is a phase, and it will eventually end (it is slowly startying to already), but I do believe that liw limit NL wil continue to exist, and it will have a long term effect on the LHE games. There is simply more money to be made, now, at the NL tables, so more and more people are making the switch.

I reluctantly made the switch about 8 months ago or so, and severely regret not making it sooner. NL is simply a better game for the educated player. I recommend making the switch and ride the wave, while it lasts.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
At a slow moment I went up to talk to the floor about the health of the limit games, specifically 10/20. I was told "it is unusual for the 10/20 to break so early, but it is probably just because of curiosity of the new game."
So what is the new game? "200-500 No limit."
Why have you decided to offer this game? "Well at times we have six tables of 50-200NL going and we don't have any open tables for other games, so we were hoping to attract some of those players to this game."
Huh? Doesn't that seem counter-productive? "What do you mean?"
I just hope some of your players don't get cleaned out too quickly in this bigger game, because then you will have empty tables. Don't you think? "Well. I don't know."

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of things about this. NL does break players much faster, but NL is more "fun" and brings in a larger base of players. I knew that NL cold be really huge back in 99 when we were spreading the only small buy-in NL in Las Vegas. My observations back then were that the hotel guests really liked it because they could bet whatever they wanted. There were no confusing rules about when they coudl bet what. The other thing was they could bet enough to get entertainment. In most casinos betting $25 or $100 a hand at blackjack is not ther uncommmon. Now you want to invite them into the poker room to play $3&$6 hold'em? Even if they play $10&$20 holdem (which was a big game back then for those taht are new to poker) that doens't give them nearly the action as pit play. Back when we had that NL game I can remmeber many players playing with the rank of hands chart on the table. I can remember a couple of times people came with a $100 bill (or chip) and bet it like you would in the pit (they were all-in in the dark for $100 in a $1-$2 blind game). I can remember someonedoing this and they won the pot and decided poker realy sucked since they won $3. I can remember another person doing it and losing 2 or 3 $100s before winning a pot. He at least won $100 becasue someone called and he won.

The modern NL is far different than the traditional NL game. Max buy-ins have been introduced after seeing them on the internet (I had seen them a couple of times at semi-private games, but never in a regularly spread game)and this helps the losing players stay in action longer.

[DayTripping]

Good points LVM. I also believe we are in a cycle and that a few years from now we will once again see rooms closing left and right. I think the reemergence of the limit games will happen as well but that will take much longer.

[pig4bill]

I think the boom will end within a year. By then the new online regulations will be in place, and a much smaller WSOP main event will have been broadcast. Even though the winner will still get a few million bucks, the dream (where you can win a million bucks for tenth place) will be deflated for a lot of people.

[PorkchopDJG]

well here in Minnesota we don't have to worry about NL taking over because it's outlawed. You can only have a maximum $60 bet in any game.

I know in Vegas NL is definitely taking over. During the World Series in the Amazon room cash games there were probably 20 NL games going and one 4/8 and one 10/20 and that was it for limit. When you went to places like Venetian and Caesars they were lucky to get a full 6/12 game going. It seemed the only places to be guaranteed a 8/16 or higher on a regular basis was Mirage, Bellagio and Wynn.

I also hope this improves and starts to come back to more middle limit games in the future.

[lossage]

[ QUOTE ]
Are limit games going to just disappear? How bad is it getting in other parts of the country?... By 1am there is only a 3/6 limit game while there were four full NL games going. (We are heading into Christmas weekend?)

[/ QUOTE ]
In the Chicago area, games are almost sorting themselves by casino, as a sort of "culture." At Resorts, $5/$10 and $10/$20 games are plentiful, basically as popular as the $5/$10 NLHE game; there are also reliably a couple of 7-Stud tables going. At Majestic Star II, the other good poker room near Chicago right now, small stakes ($100 or $300 max.) NLHE are the most popular games, and there is usually no 7-Stud, but there are usually quite a few $3/$6 games going. NLHE is only way out in front on Friday and Saturday nights.

I noticed the same effect in Vegas last time I was there where, say, MGM Grand and Caesar's Palace were almost exclusively NLHE rooms when the crowd was light, and Wynn and Bellagio had big limit presences at the same times. It was just the "culture" of the rooms.

As for what's coming next, who can say? Dedicated Draw or 7-Stud players have had to switch to Hold'em for their primary games, for the most part. Those of us with limit Hold'em as our primary game will probably have to switch eventually, as well. (I've started dipping my toes into NLHE in casinos, and I've all but given up on limit Hold'em online.)

Poker monoculture gets boring, though, and there will be more than one game to choose from at all but the smallest rooms. Three weeks ago, I played $4/$8 O/8 at Caesar's Palace with mostly under-50 people bored with NLHE. Granted, it was only one of 3 non-NLHE games in the room at the time, but it was fun, and it reminded me that I love poker, not Hold'em.

I'm confident the poker gods will provide. Amen.

[TripleH68]

One simple thing I may add about my latest experience...

There was a lot more fun, laughing, interaction between players in the limit game. I watched the no limit games for a little while and they were quiet, tense, is a fight/argument about to break out type games. This is pretty much right in line with what Mason has to say about what these games can do for a poker room(and I am referring to one that relies on more regular players than tourists).

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
The modern NL is far different than the traditional NL game. Max buy-ins have been introduced after seeing them on the internet (I had seen them a couple of times at semi-private games, but never in a regularly spread game)and this helps the losing players stay in action longer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. Check out Mason's editorial to this months magazine regarding the increases in the max buy. I would have liked to comment in detail but couldn't find the time.

~ Rick