T9s (preflop action)

[Harkon]

I don't have great reads here, everyone looks to be loose and bad, with the exception of the button on who I had some TAGish stats over ~100 hands (but I don't remember anything special about him, no notes).

My limp should be ok, although I considered raising to buy the button and because I figured I had a nice big-pot hand and some loose limpers and blinds who would most of the time come along for the ride. Or is that crazy talk?

Anyways, I was not sure if calling two more bets after BB's 3-bet was too expensive for this hand. I had to call the cap too obviously now that I had dug myself into the hand, but the question is should I stay in when the BB 3-bets it?

I decided to get involved because I had a hand that was most likely not dominated should I flop a top pair (one that's easy to get away from if there's any real action), and the potential to flop something big. And UTG and UTG+1 were there contributing dead money.

Any comments? And sorry if this is uninteresting, being only about preflop.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

[BigBadBabar]

we have a nice big-pot hand if we get in cheaply and hit one of a few certain miracle flops. with this much action it's not so nice obviously.

although, i don't really hate the pf action. avoiding the math basically, we're in there with 4 other people, so that's not terrible oddswise. each time we are getting okay odds to call.

the problem is that the pot is huge and even if we have only a crappy draw on the flop we're justified in chasing it most likely so we could lose a lot more. but we could win a monster pot too. with this much pf action it's possible these guys are holding a lot of similar high cards which is good for us.

doesn't seem like a situation that comes up often so i say go for it. nice table selection!

[kerowo]

Calling two here is bad when you can't close the action. You really didn't want to be calling 3 with those. 4 people in makes it not too bad as long as you can get away from it if you don't 4 flush or 4 staight the flop or better.

[Aaron W.]

Once it's two back to you, you need to decide if you want to gamble. You're looking for two pair or better, and T9s has a number of ways to get better than two pair (I don't trust top pair in this case -- even less when it's capped). I think calling in a 5-handed pot is a small +EV situation, but it's +++Variance.

The reason it's such high variance is that you're going to have odds to chase some weak hands. If you flop top pair, you'll have odds to draw to trips or two pair. If you flop a gutshot, you'll have odds to draw for two or even three bets when you account for the large implied odds. Throw in a backdoor flush draw to either of these and you might be right to call even if it came back cold-capped to you.

If you feel strong with your postflop play, go ahead and gamble. Otherwise, seriously consider just staying out of the way of this one. You run a high risk of compounding errors with this hand.

[threads13]

I fold when it is 2 more back to me. The BB likely has a strong hand and you have to tighten up when you have to call 2.

[Martijns]

Id sometimes call/sometimes fold after 2 limps already, people tend to limp with 10Js/Q10s sort of hands so you might be reversed dominated. After calling I would play the same.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

easy cap when its 2 back to you. calling the 2 in a pot this big is so insanely +ev i cant believe its even being discussed.

cap for:

a) value vs this many, your decisions postflop are easy too.
b) change dynamic, may get checked to on flop
c) potential to buy button if button is halfway decent

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
easy cap when its 2 back to you. calling the 2 in a pot this big is so insanely +ev i cant believe its even being discussed.

cap for:

a) value vs this many, your decisions postflop are easy too.
b) change dynamic, may get checked to on flop
c) potential to buy button if button is halfway decent

[/ QUOTE ]

a1) Postflop decisions will be easier because you've now bloated the pot to the point where you're right to chase almost anything. You're going to have odds to chase various weak draws, but you're trapped in a bad position between two aggressors.

a2) It may not be for value if BB or button has a decent hand. You are often chasing an overpair from BB.

b) Maybe.

c) There are very few hands that I would raise from the button and not take a flop with given that I have good position on a LRR. There's also no threat of future preflop action, so it's clear that I will see a flop for just two more bets in a big pot.

This is a very weak argument for capping.

Calling is +EV, but not hugely so. There are good implied odds here, but there are reverse implied odds happening if you're not a decent postflop player. It's also high variance.

[Harkon]

I'm glad the hand inspired some discussion. Any comments about my idea of raising after the two limpers when it's my first turn to act? Or is that too stoopid to even talk about? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad the hand inspired some discussion. Any comments about my idea of raising after the two limpers when it's my first turn to act? Or is that too stoopid to even talk about? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping is fine. Raising is fine. It depends on the sort of table you're at.

Be more inclined to raise if...
1) The blinds and button are tight
2) The limpers play tight postflop
3) The limpers are passive/predictable

Be more inclined to limp if...
1) The blinds and button are loose
2) The limpers chase lots of hands postflop
3) The limpers are aggressive