To fire or not to fire...that is the question...

Mr.Poker · #1 12-18-2006, 07:08 PM

I hadn't done anything spectacular or out of line yet, hadn't shown down at the table though but also hadn't been particularly active. Wanted to mix up my play PF, especially as I hadn't raised yet from EP.

I think flop is pretty standard, turn is where is gets interesting...particularly with the stack sizes and size of pot. What's your play? Check behind? Fire again..if so, how much? If you are raising, whats your plan if you are reraised: (i) not all in? (ii) all in?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t4145)
BB (t5110)
UTG (t4475)
Hero (t4755)
MP1 (t3135)
MP2 (t6850)
CO (t2370)
Button (t840)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t400, 5 folds, BB calls t250.

Flop: (t875) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t550, BB calls t550.

Turn: (t1975) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ??

Bond18 · #2 12-18-2006, 07:21 PM

Okay heres my thing, it might seem a little WT but my thinking goes like this:

If villian has a K we're probably not going to get him to fold for our 1k bet. If he shoves on us with a two pair/strong K type hand its ugly because we've put like 40% of our stack in and have an enormous draw.

We have some showdown value here and we also have position with a heart draw thats pretty hidden.

I like a check here.

If hes got a K hes gonna fire many rivers, and when we miss we can call and look him up if he doesn't fire to big. When we hit the straight draw we can expect a check from 1 pair and you can likely squeeze a maybe 40% pot bet out of him. When we hit our flush and hes got a K/two pair we likely get him to commit a fair bit of chips here because our flush draw is by no means obvious. Probably the same when we hit a 9.

Whats our play if we get a J and he leads 50-75% pot guys?

Theres also a few draws he can have on this flop that might bet a missed river which we can snap off assuming he doesn't fire like 1600 or something, which is going to be tough but probably a fold.

Check behind, call 1200 or less when we miss, milk him when we hit.

Mr.Poker · #3 12-18-2006, 07:43 PM

Yeh I really agree with you here Bond. We have showdown value, a big draw which is pretty well hidden, meaning we are still getting value from King 1 pair hands and two pair hands on the river.

The added factor here for me are the stack sizes. If I bet again, for around 1000-1200, I have 2500ish behind which will commit me to the pot is he raises.

I think if the possibility of 3 betting with fold equity (ie. deep stacks) then this could be a really interesting spot.

Im still interested to hear a few more responses before I post the rest of the hand, particularly as at this stage Villian's hand is not well defined and we have a very strong hand/draw. (Although, I think this is a good example of why a check behind is good due to the calling/raising ranges of Villian)

bucktotal · #4 12-18-2006, 08:23 PM

pretty standard spot to check for all the reasons you and bond18 have stated.

no need to get c/r'd into a bad spot calling off with 16 outs max when we can draw for free and keep villains range wider than if we bet.

but i would need a solid read on BB to call 1/3 of my stack on a river bet UI.

Mr.Poker · #5 12-18-2006, 08:35 PM

OK then, well, I wasnt really thinking and lead out again....

Turn: (t1975) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1150, BB raises to t2300, Hero has 2600 behind? Call/fold/push?

ps. is there a difference between calling and pushing here?

Doggie_Fire · #6 12-18-2006, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK then, well, I wasnt really thinking and lead out again....

Turn: (t1975) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1150, BB raises to t2300, Hero has 2600 behind? Call/fold/push?

ps. is there a difference between calling and pushing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's telling you that you are beat here. It could be anything from a straight, to AK, to trips, with the emphasis on the straight as his play would lead me to this.

That's why you have to check on that turn. Your flop play gave yourself a free card on the turn, and one which could very well garantee beating his hand should you hit, had you taken it. Now you are in a really bad position where your chips are on the line for no good reason. At this point, you have to call.

And yes, there's a difference between calling and pushing, since calling here keeps you alive, while pushing ensures you go down in flames and making your original mistake even worse.

RetiredAt22 · #7 12-19-2006, 04:03 PM

doggie's got it spot on. Think about BB's actions. Called your raise from UTG+1 when youve said you've been pretty quiet so far. Granted that this isnt a $3rebuy tourney, you could be fairly confident that hes got a legitimate hand. True he has position, but UTG raises mean prime hands, so the very least i see him playing here is AK possilby JTs, both have you beat with that kinda board.

On the flop: check, villain bets 550... to me, that bet sounds like JT, If i have AK there i dont bet so much, but JT, i got double gutshot and i like that you checked the flop. If you lead out with a UTG raise with JJ/QQ, maybe i can take it right there. if he did have JT, the turns a straight and the bet makes sense.

Now your play was completely wrong: you have to get that free shot at your flush. if you just check, he may fire, but betting there is only going to win the pot if he had AQ or JQ and was posturing at the pot on the flop.

And as for the PS: i dont think thres much of a difference, id say move all in, if you do double up and win, you get an extra 300 chips, but with the blinds comming around your toast.

Doggie_Fire · #8 12-20-2006, 01:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And as for the PS: i dont think thres much of a difference, id say move all in, if you do double up and win, you get an extra 300 chips, but with the blinds comming around your toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why I wouldn't push here is this. If Hero calls here and misses, he still has 1450 chips left, and the blind is still only 150. It's a short stack, but it's still pretty early in the tourney and recoverable. You calculated the number of chips needed to call here incorrectly, as Hero already has 1150 of 2300 chips bet. He won't be left with 300 chips.

The other reason is that Hero's flush draw is well hidden, so even if he hits the river, Villain will have tons of difficulty putting him on a flush and he also happens to be the first to act. If I were in Villain's shoes I would put Hero on a 2 pair, a trip, or an overpair. Hero is in a betting mood, and I am here to milk it for what its worth with my straight as I am positive I have the upper hand.

A flush draw would not be on my mind, and even in the unlikely event it happens, I am already too pot commited to fold a straight on the river.

Hero doesn't need to risk his remaining 1450 chips here. They only need to be played on a flush hit for a garanteed pot. Villain will push all in no matter what hits, so either Hero loses all but 1450 chips, or doubles up. It's better then double or nothing.