No such thing as a random card/number generator

[lstephen666]

Does anyone know whether online sites use a hardware based solution similar to those above?

It seems like there is enough random data available to them (e.g., network delays, players reaction times in making decisions) to seed a generator with.

[Abbaddabba]

It is arguable that nothing in the universe is random.

Anything can be predicted with complete information of the circumstances leading up to the event.

The shuffles in online poker are closer to being truly random than almost anything you observe in every day life.

[adenosine]

[ QUOTE ]
It is arguable that nothing in the universe is random.

Anything can be predicted with complete information of the circumstances leading up to the event.

The shuffles in online poker are closer to being truly random than almost anything you observe in every day life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quantum mechanics just called, they'd like to talk to you on the issue of a completely determanistic universe.

[Ron Burgundy]

HELLO kathy,

JUST because there's NO such THING AS a truly random NUMBER GENERATOR, doesn't MEAN THAT an RNG would be VERY EASY to CRACK. Furthermore, JUST because someone HAS FIGURED out how TO PREDICT cards AT a POKER SITE, doesn't MEAN THE games WILL NO longer BE PROFITABLE. ANYONE who is ABLE to PREDICT cards WOULD KEEP it a secret AS long AS POSSIBLE in ORDER TO MAKE much monies FOR themself.

As long AS THERE are fish, THERE WILL be good GAMES ONLINE.

[En Passant]

[ QUOTE ]
The show was on Discovery Channel and was about Gaming/Las Vegas.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RANDOM CARD/NUMBER GENERATOR!

PROVEN BY NEVADA GAMING COMMISSION-

TO GENERATE "RANDOM", someone has to write a program -
ALL PROGRAMS CAN BE "BROKE".

Ask the FORMER Nevada Gaming Enforcement Agent, working in slots FOR THE GAMING COMMISION, who "broke" the slot code in Nevada, took his "insite" to the EAST COAST, and "ginned" A MAJOR SLOT MACHINE!

Easy money!.

The Nevada agent lost his Nevada Gaming License and went straight to jail!

TELL THE TRUTH - ONLINE POKER IS A PROGRAM!

ALL PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE WRITTEN/CODED AND CAN BE "BROKE".

NOW WONDER if one is "MANIPULATED" while playing ON LINE POKER.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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4 posts... thats about right

[Jack Bando]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The show was on Discovery Channel and was about Gaming/Las Vegas.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RANDOM CARD/NUMBER GENERATOR!

PROVEN BY NEVADA GAMING COMMISSION-

TO GENERATE "RANDOM", someone has to write a program -
ALL PROGRAMS CAN BE "BROKE".

Ask the FORMER Nevada Gaming Enforcement Agent, working in slots FOR THE GAMING COMMISION, who "broke" the slot code in Nevada, took his "insite" to the EAST COAST, and "ginned" A MAJOR SLOT MACHINE!

Easy money!.

The Nevada agent lost his Nevada Gaming License and went straight to jail!

TELL THE TRUTH - ONLINE POKER IS A PROGRAM!

ALL PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE WRITTEN/CODED AND CAN BE "BROKE".

NOW WONDER if one is "MANIPULATED" while playing ON LINE POKER.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

4 posts... thats about right

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Even for 4 posts this is bad. Each post is like this. Ugh.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know whether online sites use a hardware based solution similar to those above?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. Paradise explains their random number generation pretty thoroughly and don't mention hardware RNGs. Neither do the pages explaining the RNGs on Party or Stars.

[lstephen666]

Thanks, I hadn't seen the paradise one before. I had looked through the party and stars pages.

[ QUOTE ]
At Paradise Poker, we chose to use a 31 bit random function (coming from a 2016 bit seed that has entropy constantly added to it - see the random number generation information below for more details), thereby decreasing the bias even further (by a factor of 65536), as well as shuffling the deck more than once. We found that shuffling twice removes 99% of the bias, and shuffling 3 times makes it pretty much immeasurable, then we decided to triple it for good measure and bump it up to 10 times to keep the marketing people happy. These two changes result in a shuffled deck with no detectable bias.

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph worries me a bit. I really don't like how they just decided to "triple it and bump it up 10 times". Having done a bit of computer security I know that implementing the wrong type of security 30 times, is no better than doing it once (i.e., fixing one security hole a bad way 30 times, is no better than just fixing it the right way once (esp., if there are still other holes)). It would be good if they provided a link to some mathematical proof that this is actually the case.

Also, it still seems like there would be some bias here (although insignificant and undetectable, I don't think it's zero), when it would be easy enough to get zero bias (using their 0-63 number generator example, how about just ignoring numbers 52 or over?).

It's good to see some inputs like network delay in their RNG.

So, I like their detail, but I think a lot of it is unnecessary 'show' for the user.

[Kathy]

4 posts!

Maybe - Maybe Not!

Maybe a new ID -

Maybe - I've been around long enough to have played poker with Stu Ungar, Ray Zee, Johnny Moss, Tuna Lund, Johnny Chan. Garland Walters, and yes Skalansky and Mason, although Mason never plays very high.

Much detail lacking both in your summation and my equation.

There is no such thing as a random card/number generator for online poker sites.

Someone has to write the program.

Continue on debating - but READ some of the responses.

Someone else MIGHT know something.

As long as there are "people looking to give there money away", there will be poker, poker tournaments, both online and in brick and mortar.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[alphatmw]

i LOST the ABILITY to CONTORL the VOLMUME and FLUCTATIONS of my TYPING