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#1
12-19-2006, 08:01 PM
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I get called a fish because of this river call.
Villain is unknown
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls. Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks. Turn: (3 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks. River: (3 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls. Final Pot: 7 BB My thinking was that this raise on the river was complete BS because there is no way he is checking a made hand on the flop and turn here in position 
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#2
12-19-2006, 08:30 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
While it may be worth a stab at the pot on the river, I don't think you can call the raise.
I'd prefer to let someone try and bluff at the river and if I was last to act, it might be worth a call. If there's an overcall it's an easy muck. The pot isn't that big and MP probably has a small pair. I don't see a bluff raise in this spot as the villain should know that nobody is going to fold and 8 or 9 in this spot at those limits. Reads would have been useful here.
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#4
12-19-2006, 08:50 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
It is a pretty fishy call....
You only beat a bluff and A-high. A-high is likely to just call, not raise, so that leaves a bluff. The pot is very small, making a bluff unlikely. Also, the draw came through on the river, so his raise isn't completely out of left field and although you may expect him to bet the flop or turn if he does have clubs, there are enough players who will check a FD last to act to make it a reasonable holding.
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#5
12-19-2006, 08:59 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
I think that most likely MP flopped a monster (with 88) that he patiently (and kind of foolishly) slowplayed or he thinks he's brilliantly representing a rivered flush with his QJo.
A passively played flush draw is also possible, but 88 is 3 whole combos, and 33 and 22 together are just two more. The river raise does seem suspicious to me, and I think the call is okay. You'll usually lose, but MP's play has been weird, and you are getting 6:1.
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#6
12-19-2006, 09:23 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
To clarify, I think THE BET on the river is bad. Once you have bet, then, as Nick says, you are getting 6-1 and he's played it oddly, so you can't fold.
This is a situation where betting doesn't do you much good, because you will rarely be called by worse hands, and you will (usually) only get raised by better hands. If you can bet/fold with certainty, then betting becomes a fine play, but since you can't do that here, check-call is correct.
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#7
12-19-2006, 09:26 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
The bet and call both look fine to me. You're going to get a lot of A-hi calls from MP here, and that raise is way too suspsicious to fold getting 6:1.
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#8
12-19-2006, 09:33 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
[ QUOTE ]
You only beat a bluff and A-high. A-high is likely to just call [/ QUOTE ] Thats the point, I was value betting my 2's hoping to get a calldown with A high. An unimproved A high is not betting this river after checking the flop and turn. He raised pf is last to act and checked the flop and turn. There is no way I thought he had a huge hand here like 88 because this is the kind of board a lot of players will peel on. If he has a huge hand he must really hate money because what player is going to check the flop and the turn with a made hand after raising preflop and is last to act? He would also be ebttign a flsuh draw on at least one of those streets Checking the flop maybe but checking the flop and turn? What kind of player does this? Why is this a bad river bet? He has played his hand passivley so far, and the board isn't scary in the least. I think the river was a clear value bet but tell me why it wasn't? [ QUOTE ] I think it's a bad call. Check/call the river [/ QUOTE ] I can't check call this river if A high won't bet it.
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#9
12-19-2006, 09:37 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
I agree that it is unlikely for him to check both streets w/ a flush draw.
But does he check the flop and turn w/ A high then raise the river with it? Out of the two scenarios, the second is far more unlikely, don't you agree?
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#10
12-19-2006, 09:40 PM
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Re: I get called a fish because of this river call.
A value bet expects to get called by a worse hand. Do you expect him to call with a worse hand? Ok, you do. But when he raises, he doesn't have a worse hand. So for this to be a value bet, it has to be bet/fold. Bet/calling takes away the value, so if you won't fold to a raise, you should be check-calling.
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