KK on a broadway flop

[cortanpeter]

That flop sucks. I can't make up my mind. This may be the only board I don't c-bet with two people. Heads-up I still c-bet. That flop sucks. Check/fold...

[Quester]

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I disagree. My 8xBB PFR is scary as hell to most NL50 players. They're only calling with "strong" hands - aka. broadway cards. This flop hit them in the face. Most likely their looking at 2-pair or a set. And the average NL50 who has 2-pair or a set isn't even going to stop to wonder if maybe I have AA.

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Hold on, you're contradicting yourself here. You say your 8BB PFR is scary to most NL50 players, but then you're saying they aren't going to consider AA if they have 2-pair or a set?

If they are afraid of the preflop raise, they have to consider AA to be a very probable holding. You're not getting a set to fold here, but 2-pair may toss it.


Besides, what do you put UTG and Button on? They both limped then called your raise. You really think that TT and JJ are possible holdings? If so, from which player? Would UTG limp TT/JJ? Would Button limp TT/JJ? You're behind KQ, but you're ahead of the majority of their range and can get AJ and AT to fold here sometimes.

I'm c-betting this almost always.

[Kyriefurro]

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Hold on, you're contradicting yourself here. You say your 8BB PFR is scary to most NL50 players, but then you're saying they aren't going to consider AA if they have 2-pair or a set?

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Nope. Not contradicting myself at all. Remember that the average NL50 player is not very good at second level thinking, if they do it at all. Most of them won't put me on an actual range, they'll just see a strong bet and assume that I have a "good" hand (their definition of "good" may vary, though). And while they may very well include AA in their thought process, that doesn't mean they won't call the PFR with QJo hoping to hit a straight.

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If they are afraid of the preflop raise, they have to consider AA to be a very probable holding.

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You're assuming that they're connecting my preflop action with post-flop play. Again, the average NL50 player isn't very good at this. In fact, I know of a few multi-tabling 2+2ers who have trouble with this since they get distracted by the action on one of their other tables and forget what's happening on this table lol.

And even if we assume that they ARE good enough to put me on a range and to consider my PFR with regards to the flop, AA is only ONE of the hands I might be raising here with. And since I'm just as much an unknown to them as they are to me, they'd have to put me on a much larger range than just AA. A c-bet on a board like this is just NOT that scary. Especially with two players involved.

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You're not getting a set to fold here, but 2-pair may toss it.

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May...but probably won't. 2-pair is a "very strong" hand. Not many people will fold it, even on a board like this.

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Besides, what do you put UTG and Button on? They both limped then called your raise. You really think that TT and JJ are possible holdings? If so, from which player? Would UTG limp TT/JJ? Would Button limp TT/JJ? You're behind KQ, but you're ahead of the majority of their range and can get AJ and AT to fold here sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a big part of the problem with this hand. Without some sort of read, I have a hard time putting them on anything. You act like you've never seen a loose-passive player limp with TT/JJ. If that's the case, you need to pay more attention to your game. There are a huge number of layers (at least on Stars) who are afraid to hit the raise button with anything but AA.

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I'm c-betting this almost always.

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Then you're loosing money on this hand. You have a very weak hand here - if you're ahead you're vulnerable, and if you're behind you're unlikely to catch up. And you're not getting both players to fold.

[crookdimwit]

Check, fold... Sucks to have to bail with KK, but the board is a nightmare. About as bad as you could ask for...

You're already behind to any ace. Very easy to see someone with two pair or trips here. One of the remaining K's makes a flush, Any king may make a straight. Oh, and you have to worry about two players...

[Quester]

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Nope. Not contradicting myself at all. Remember that the average NL50 player is not very good at second level thinking, if they do it at all. Most of them won't put me on an actual range, they'll just see a strong bet and assume that I have a "good" hand (their definition of "good" may vary, though). And while they may very well include AA in their thought process, that doesn't mean they won't call the PFR with QJo hoping to hit a straight.

You're assuming that they're connecting my preflop action with post-flop play. Again, the average NL50 player isn't very good at this. In fact, I know of a few multi-tabling 2+2ers who have trouble with this since they get distracted by the action on one of their other tables and forget what's happening on this table lol.

And even if we assume that they ARE good enough to put me on a range and to consider my PFR with regards to the flop, AA is only ONE of the hands I might be raising here with. And since I'm just as much an unknown to them as they are to me, they'd have to put me on a much larger range than just AA. A c-bet on a board like this is just NOT that scary. Especially with two players involved.

May...but probably won't. 2-pair is a "very strong" hand. Not many people will fold it, even on a board like this.

That's a big part of the problem with this hand. Without some sort of read, I have a hard time putting them on anything. You act like you've never seen a loose-passive player limp with TT/JJ. If that's the case, you need to pay more attention to your game. There are a huge number of layers (at least on Stars) who are afraid to hit the raise button with anything but AA.

Then you're loosing money on this hand. You have a very weak hand here - if you're ahead you're vulnerable, and if you're behind you're unlikely to catch up. And you're not getting both players to fold.

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I had a long, elegant response to this then the site went down. I don't really want to reproduce it, so briefly:

If you consider QJo to be in your opponent's range, you need to also consider hands like KT, QT, KJ.

If you consider that they will limp with TT or JJ, then you also need to consider that they will limp with QQ.

Their range is wider than you give credit for.