Kill Pot Question

[1-Lucky-SOB]

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Here's the KISS method I use when I play a kill game that's on the edge of my BR (e.g, the 25/50 kill, re-kill at Aqua Caliente). At Aqau it's a win two pots in a row and then you must kill. If you win three in a row you post a $100 kill and your are now playing 100/200, big for me.

~ Rick

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What does KISS stand for? I have never heard this term before.
(I know you are not referring to the 'Hottest Band In The Land'-KISS [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img])


This is the first time I have ever heard of a Re Kill, also.

Whatever the stakes are, if I am playing in this game, I personally would want to be playing lower than I would normally play, to take advantage of the players who are now playing outside of their 'comfort zone', and steal from them w/ air.

Anytime a player is out of their 'comfort zone' that player is a target.


Is Aqua Caliente on the Colo. river, or am I thinking of someplace else ?

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[1-Lucky-SOB]

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- - If I'm facing a kill I tighten up once others are in. If no one is in your steal equity goes way up so I loosen up on my steals. Otherwise you are spewing EV.

~ Rick

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I assume you mean that the other players think you will tighten up to avoid having to be the killer on the next hand?

If I undersood right. I think it depends on the quality of hand you won the last pot with, and what the other players perception of you is, TAG, LAG, Rock.



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[1-Lucky-SOB]

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The live O8 game I play has kill pots that have either crushed me or made me a very happy man. Generally I play much tighter pre-flop. If it's my kill I treat it much like I was in the BB. I've also found you get no respect for a hand, even when you raise your kill, which means that if you get something nice you can get a big payday.

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It seems to me that in any kill game that I am in, it's the kill pots that I'm in that define my session also - adenosine.



At least half the players at the table are coming in with group 1 hands or small pairs in HE, if they come in at all.
In O8 they have the premiums also.

If the table has tightened up ( and some of them are playing out of their 'comfort zone' ), this creates prime stealing opportunities on the later streets.

Once I can put them on a smaller range of hands, it's much easier for me to figure out where I am in the hand, and it makes play on those later streets much easier IMO.



I do think that most players try to avoid the variance though that comes with kill pots, and can tilt easily if they lose a big one.

I come from the casino side of this forum though and personally think, variance = +EV, as long as I am not playing higher than my bankroll can ride in out the long term.



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[Mano]

Keep it Simple, Stupid.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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[ QUOTE ]
- - If I'm facing a kill I tighten up once others are in. If no one is in your steal equity goes way up so I loosen up on my steals. Otherwise you are spewing EV.

~ Rick

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I assume you mean that the other players think you will tighten up to avoid having to be the killer on the next hand?

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Assuming as the OP stated we are at the edge of our bankroll's comfort zone I meant if someone else has posted a kill we need to tighten up on our calls a bit when others have already called (this will spew some EV). OTOH, attack the posted kill more than you would the blinds alone (if nobody else is in). Otherwise you spew lots of EV.



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If I undersood right. I think it depends on the quality of hand you won the last pot with, and what the other players perception of you is, TAG, LAG, Rock.

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Good point. Your image will probably be TAG if you are playing in this game, so stealing should work out a bit better than usual.

~ Rick

[BigAlChicago]

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Let's just say for example that you have a bankroll that will sustain a 3/6 game at the most. (could be any level for this question)

If your casino has a game with the full kill pot feature, how many of you would just skip the kill pot hands (because it's a 6/12 game and outside of your bankroll)?

Of if is it still acceptable to play the kill pots since they dont happen "as often". Im leaning toward thinking you need a bigger bankroll for these games.

Because it would be a mistake probally to sit down in a 6/12 game that you dont have the bankroll for, so it cant be that correct to play all those hands that are kill pots. (obviously the competition is softer which helps, but Im thinking more in terms of the varience)

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I expect that most of your "Kill" experience is at the Pot based on your earlier posts. On that basis, I think Rick's advice is exactly the line that I follow there when playing in the kill games. If you are better than the opposition at the table, you should relish the opportunity to participate in the kills. However, follow Rick's advice.

1. When you have the leg up, don't get involved with marginal hands. You need to be sure that you have enough equity to cover your post in the event that you win the hand. If you are in early position, play only the top hands and throw away any of your marginal calls. Of course, when it is late position, you can participate if it is a multiway pot and you have a hand that will do well in that circumstance (e.g., suited connectors after many have entered the pot.)

2. If you are the killer, play as if you have posted the big blind (which you have). Even in good sessions, you won't be a killer more than a couple of times over several hours because you are a tight player and tightening up even more with the leg up button.

3. Remember that others at the table are also generally more weak and passive when it is a kill. (I know this is a generalization, and you need to size up your opponents individually. There might be a couple who loosen up their calling and raising standards when it is a kill and you need to look for opportunities to punish them with quality hands.)

3. Finally, look for opportunities to steal the blinds (risking $12 to take $10 pre-flop) as first one into the pot after the killer has checked and no one has entered the pot.

While I typically have bought into limit games for 25X the big blind, I will buy into the 3-6 game at the Pot (or Majestic Star) for $160. I am not going to say that I have never lost that amount in those games in a single session, but that if you play with confidence following the guidelines laid out by Rick, above, you should learn to embrace the kill, not fear it. At least that is the progression that I went through going from a newbie to a more seasoned low limit Pot player.

[lossage]

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- If I win a pot I tighten up preflop (and postflop on marginal edges) next hand.

- I tighten up more than usual UTG because if I win that hand I get the BB next hand and now I will win more often then usual percentage defending my blind (if memory serves you kill on a walk in the blinds).

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Right, of course: the looming kill blind reduces your pot odds when you have a leg up, so it's correct to tighten up. However, I think that whether the kill is on if one steals the blinds or gets a walk in the big blind is affected by house rules. I've played a couple of places where winning a tiny pot in Hold'em doesn't put the kill on (or cause the leg up to change hands).

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- If I'm facing a kill I tighten up once others are in.

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If you're playing scared, that's good advice: to sacrifice a little EV for a lot of (negative) variance. In one extreme case, with a friend who wanted to play poker in a casino but were playing the $3/$6 kill game with a very nervous $150, I just told him to dump everything but KK and AA pre-flop if someone else posted the kill.

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If no one is in your steal equity goes way up so I loosen up on my steals. Otherwise you are spewing EV.

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You play much higher than I do, Rick, so I feel I should interject here. At the $3/$6 and $5/$10 (nee $6/$12) kill games at Majestic Star near Chicago, people sort themselves into four categories when the kill is on: (a) tight-passive wimp (40%), (b) typical loose-passive imbecile (30%), (c) chip-spewing, leg-up-button-defending LAG-tard (30%), (d) non-horrible player (0.01%). If (a)-type players are in the blinds, I steal mercilessly. If (b) or (c)-type players are in, I can push marginal edges (Pocket 7s? Re-raise!), but I can't really steal per se.

Come to think of it, it wasn't much better at the $10/$20 half-kill game, but my roll can't handle $15/$30 for long stretches.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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If no one is in your steal equity goes way up so I loosen up on my steals. Otherwise you are spewing EV.

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You play much higher than I do, Rick, so I feel I should interject here. At the $3/$6 and $5/$10 (nee $6/$12) kill games at Majestic Star near Chicago, people sort themselves into four categories when the kill is on: (a) tight-passive wimp (40%), (b) typical loose-passive imbecile (30%), (c) chip-spewing, leg-up-button-defending LAG-tard (30%), (d) non-horrible player (0.01%). If (a)-type players are in the blinds, I steal mercilessly. If (b) or (c)-type players are in, I can push marginal edges (Pocket 7s? Re-raise!), but I can't really steal per se.

Come to think of it, it wasn't much better at the $10/$20 half-kill game, but my roll can't handle $15/$30 for long stretches.

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This of course is very good, more refined advice. I like the "non horrible player (0.01%)" comment but I fear it's a bit hyperbolic. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Nuevo99]

Why indeed?

[BigAlChicago]

I guess your question boils down to an issue of what size bankroll should you have to play in the 3-6 game with a kill? I believe common wisdom on this board is that your roll should be 300 times BB which would be $1800 for a straight 3-6 game.

Let's assume roughly 10% of the hands are killed to 6-12. (A full table at the Pot is 10 handed, so I am assuming an equal probability that the leg up will win the next hand.) I would think that means that your bankroll should be roughly 10% of 3600 and 90% of 1800 or $1980, or roughly $2000.

In other words, I don't think that it takes a significantly greater bankroll to play the 3-6 with a kill. Where you might be hurt is if you let the higher limit turn your game weak tight. Follow the advice here, and you should do fine adjusting to the kill pots. Otherwise, if you are stretching your bankroll to even play the 3-6, go back down to the 2-4 until you feel comfortable.

It has been a long time since I have seen a game at the Pot that didn't have the kill.