New Fight Question

[SuperSuperRambo]

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I think you're being a nit.

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That's fair. I think you're probably right about that. So let me ask another question for those who are followers of MMA:

Do you think a MMA competition is the best way to determine who would win a real fight, as in: no rules, to the death.

I can say with ultimate confidence that Taekwon-Do competition doesn't do anything close to approximating that. I have fought a world champion, and while I wouldn't even remotely stand a chance in a scored match with him, I could easily land a fight stopping punch because he doesn't even practice defending against this sort of thing. They don't score punches.

And if you do think it's the best way to determine who would win a real fight, how accurate do you think it is? Like, what's the variance?

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Good question.

I think it's the best way that we have to determine who would win in a real fight to the death. Of course the optimal setting would literally be a no-holds-barred death match, but this isn't feasible for obvious reasons. I think it's a better determinant than a limited sparring session, or training supposedly more realistic techniques half-force against a complacent opponent.

You tae kwon do example is a good one, and other good examples would be boxing matches, or judo competitions, or any limited martial arts competition.

Now as for how accurate it really is, I don't know how I could quantify the realism, let alone give you something like a variance. One would have to consider variables like who the opponent is, the strengths and weaknesses of the MMA/UFC fighter, and so on. I would say that all variables such as size, strength (physical attributes) held equal, the MMA fighter would win almost all the time against a different type of opponent. But it would really depend on the opponent's abilities.

[Blarg]

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A ninjitsu kata is really effective when you know exactly what your opponent is gonna do, but when he bull-rushes you, it's not gonna look like a Stevan Segal movie with some elaborate flip.

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WTF LOL. I think this was about as mixed up as you can get.

[Blarg]

People forget that these arts were, indeed, used to kill people, and not hypothetically in the least. Many have been used for that, successfully, for many centuries, and refined in war and by professional bodyguards in high crime areas with effectively no law enforcement whatsoever. And as I noted before, traditional arts take a lot longer to train in than you're likely to see anyone in the UFC bother with. And when one is trained, it's not atypical to train in another.

[SuperSuperRambo]

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A ninjitsu kata is really effective when you know exactly what your opponent is gonna do, but when he bull-rushes you, it's not gonna look like a Stevan Segal movie with some elaborate flip.

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WTF LOL. I think this was about as mixed up as you can get.

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Yes I'm aware that I mixed ninjitsu and Aikido in the same example, if that's what you're referring to.

[SuperSuperRambo]

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People forget that these arts were, indeed, used to kill people, and not hypothetically in the least. Many have been used for that, successfully, for many centuries, and refined in war and by professional bodyguards in high crime areas with effectively no law enforcement whatsoever. And as I noted before, traditional arts take a lot longer to train in than you're likely to see anyone in the UFC bother with. And when one is trained, it's not atypical to train in another.

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That's a pretty sweeping generalization on several levels. First off, I haven't argued that you can't kill someone with one of the arts (it would be easier to respond if you gave an example of one of these arts you are describing). But I would question the effectiveness against an opponent trained in hybrid styles that emphasize full contact sparring.

Second, how long are you saying that it takes to train in these arts to use them effctively? You say it's long enough that UFC fighters don't dedicate the time to train that long. Judging by that statement I think you seriously underestimate the decication it takes to become a successful MMA fighter. Several top fighters have been training their entire lives. Several of the top fighters over the years have been world class wrestlers who have trained in wrestling for over 20 years and defeat their opponents with a "ground and pound" strategy that relies on their wrestling skills. Such fighters includ 4 time UFC champ Randy Couture, former Pride and UFC tournament champ Mark Coleman, and many many more. Other fighters were top level judo competitors before making the jump to MMA fighting, such as Olympic gold medalist Hidehiko Yoshida. Other fighters like Mirko Crocop have been training striking arts like Muay Thai since youth as well. I can't come close to listing fighters who are experts in brazilian jiujitsu and have been training for decades. It takes around 10 years to earn a black belt in brazilian jiujitsu (training full time), and this style is the backbone of modern ground fighting. In fact it would be very hard to find a top level MMA fighter that has been training less than 10 years. So I'm not sure what you mean in saying that UFC/MMA fighters don't spend that much time honing their skills. The only difference is that when training for MMA, rather than spending time continuing in one aspect and neglecting the others, they train all aspects. A top grappler will need to learn how to strike, or avoid strikes. A world champ kickboxer will need to learn how to grapple to be successful.

To be effective in a realistic fight situation, it is necessary to focus on mixed and hybrid-style fighting rather than limiting yourself to one aspect of the fight.

[Jordan]

I cannot take credit for this comment, but it came up in another discussion on who the best martial artist in the world is.

It certainly convinced me that the clear answer is martial artist, and it's not even close.

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Impossible to answer as I have not seen and been able to rate every martial artist in the world.

How do you rate different forms of different styles? an excellent practitioner of one style would beat an average practitioner of another style, so you cannot say that it would be a Karate or MMA or Judo or JuJitsiu or a taiji person. Personally, from the years of research I have done into martial arts in general, it is highly unlikely to be anyone in films or sport. so the UFC champions and Jet Li would be seriously owned by some of the serious practitioners. By serious I mean some of the experts in India and China. and some of the other serious internal practitioners who have travelled and trained hard, without ego, with these people and then tested themselves with it in special ops or personal protection in some of the most dangerous places on earth.


I train in a martial way and I believe that I am pretty good at what I do, but I would not live more than a second (and I mean live) against some of these people.


There are elderly women in China that could rip Jet Li a new one and he knows it. The way these people generate energy and anticipate their opponent seems to defy the laws of physics and has to been seen to be believed, and still it is difficult to believe.


So in answer to your question, stop believeing the hype of the heavily coreographed movies and enjoy the UFC matches for what they are: Two highly skilled atheletes trying to hurt each other for your entertainment.


Real martial artists of the calibre of the world's best do not train to fight for 10 or 15 minutes, they train to fight for a few seconds and that fight ends in incapacitation or death.


You cannot have competitions for that kind of martial art and it happens too quickly to be an effective form of entertainment in movies.


The people themselves tend to be devoid of ego, are very humble and kind and have no desire for fame or fortune, so unless you go looking for them, you are not going to know they exist.

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[Tardi]

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I cannot take credit for this comment, but it came up in another discussion on who the best martial artist in the world is.

It certainly convinced me that the clear answer is martial artist, and it's not even close.

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Impossible to answer as I have not seen and been able to rate every martial artist in the world.

How do you rate different forms of different styles? an excellent practitioner of one style would beat an average practitioner of another style, so you cannot say that it would be a Karate or MMA or Judo or JuJitsiu or a taiji person. Personally, from the years of research I have done into martial arts in general, it is highly unlikely to be anyone in films or sport. so the UFC champions and Jet Li would be seriously owned by some of the serious practitioners. By serious I mean some of the experts in India and China. and some of the other serious internal practitioners who have travelled and trained hard, without ego, with these people and then tested themselves with it in special ops or personal protection in some of the most dangerous places on earth.


I train in a martial way and I believe that I am pretty good at what I do, but I would not live more than a second (and I mean live) against some of these people.


There are elderly women in China that could rip Jet Li a new one and he knows it. The way these people generate energy and anticipate their opponent seems to defy the laws of physics and has to been seen to be believed, and still it is difficult to believe.


So in answer to your question, stop believeing the hype of the heavily coreographed movies and enjoy the UFC matches for what they are: Two highly skilled atheletes trying to hurt each other for your entertainment.


Real martial artists of the calibre of the world's best do not train to fight for 10 or 15 minutes, they train to fight for a few seconds and that fight ends in incapacitation or death.


You cannot have competitions for that kind of martial art and it happens too quickly to be an effective form of entertainment in movies.


The people themselves tend to be devoid of ego, are very humble and kind and have no desire for fame or fortune, so unless you go looking for them, you are not going to know they exist.

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This is just the usual "we train techniques that are too powerfull/dangerous to use while sparring so we can't show them to you"-baloney that many of the traditional/realitybased trainers say when asked about why they don't do sparring, and it's pretty much nonsense. There's no superhumans in China/India/Japan and only a fanboy or a fool would believe that there was.

[BCPVP]

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It certainly convinced me that the clear answer is martial artist, and it's not even close.

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Your post is not really convincing at all. It boils down to:
"Why are traditional arts the best?"
"Because"
"Because why?"
"Because because"

The "asian martial arts" category is really tough to nail down. There are many, many style and stylists. They don't always stay with their primary art and become de facto MMAists. And it's basically impossible to point out who is the best, where with MMA, we have rough ideas based on previous matches that are done in public.

Perhaps for the purposes of the discussion, we should limit the range for "asian martial artist" to known martial artists, not possible women in China who can snap people in half. That may not be fair to that category, but it's also not fair to try and end the argument with "there are deadly people in China/Japan/India".

[Faybio]

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I'll take the boxer because he would be the quickest and best athlete. I can remember watching a boxer v. kickboxer match in the 1970's. They were middleweights. All my friends bet me that the kickboxer would win. The kickboxer had an edge in round 1. But in round 2 the boxer knocked the kick boxer down and then launched multiple punches. The kick boxer then quit.

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You can't remember any specifics about the 1970's match-up? I can't think of any boxer that would beat a sufficiently trained Muay Thai fighter, let alone the best. (Muay Thai is similar to kick boxing, yet far more complex, with elbows and knees thrown into the mix.) Also, your example is incorrect in stating that the boxer would be the quickest or best athlete. That is quite an assumption.

My pick? THE BEST MMA/Ultimate Fighter, if we're talking heavyweight. If we're talking Lightweight, the BEST Martial artist.

[Greeksquared]

I think I have the answer.

What if we had two identical twins that we could separate and teach one of them to be a Seal and the other MMA their entire lives and not let them know they would have to fight to the death. This would be the purest way to test this fight.

You could even have a specified time period (say 3 months) before the fight where each fighter would be allowed to learn the others skills.

So now whats your answer??? This is all of course assuming no mental barriers with killing your brother.