Why Believing Is Necessary For "Salvation" Implies Stupidity

[goofball]

Skidoo,

How so?


El Diablo,

Obviously the question is why do people do that? How do they decide 'ok, this stuff I'll take on faith even though I'm a skeptic about everything else'?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

That statement is unbelievably obviously wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

The statement is obviously right as a general principle. You may not believe because you have a faulty standard of judgment, an unupportable presupposition concerning modern "smart" people - a concept you never define by the way. I did say those same "smart" people have not themselves examined the evidence - at least as far as I know because you never detail which "smart" people you're talking about. If it's someone like Dawkins, I rest my case.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
I am saying its possible for someone to never hear about Jesus and still go to hell even though it would be commonly believed to not be their fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is another type of "doom hook" within modern fundamentalist christianity.

a doom hook style belief system terrorizes the minds of it's host because the host is constantly afraid of guessing wrongly about the unknown ( i know this from experience ).

a doom hook style belief system is also willing to abuse and punish the proverbial "blind" (i.e. those who have a very limited amount of information and a very large amount of unknowns) because they failed to adopt certain ideas about the unknown while in this life. (i.e. they never heard and accepted the gospel)

an atheists position might be summed up as
"refusing to have a faith based relationship with unknowns"
(standard doom hook versions of christianity punish this stance)

a sufficiently powerful god would not be threatened by anything anybody did in this life given the severe levels of knowledge deprivation we have.

in these lab conditions it is very much predicted that some of the inhabitants will:

a) refuse to guess anything about the unknowns some or all of the time
b) guess incorrectly about unknowns some or all of the time
c) might guess correctly some of the time

i want a god that does not barbeque people for the rest of eternity because of the kinds of behavior they exhibited in these servere information deprived conditions.

this is a dark place (i.e. huge set of unknowns). if god is just then that god would first enlighten the mind of the subject such that all doubt and faith and guesses were gone and only then would god ask them to make a decision - a very well informed decision in fact.

if you give me enough information, i'll make high quality decisions (including but not limited to embracing any version of god shown to be 100% correct); keep me in the dark and i could very well be a danger to myself and to others.

a sufficiently powerful god that had absolute control over information would have the ability to reduce the set of unknowns within the consciousness of the subject after they died to near zero such that "faith" or "guesses" were no longer needed to make decisions and in fact the subject would have access to all of the information they needed to make any decision at hand including any decisions needed for "salvation"

so yes, there are people in this life who don't deal with unkowns very well (i.e. they have little faith). the truth is that nobody does this perfectly.

a good god would forgive the blind
an evil god would barbeque the blind

btw - i consider myself to be blind when i consider what i know versus what i dont know.

ray

[Skidoo]

Every system for generating proofs relies on propositions it cannot prove.

This has been proven (ironically).

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
Every system for generating proofs relies on propositions it cannot prove.

This has been proven (ironically).

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure you are thinking of something else, since your statement is trivially obvious. Perhaps Godel unprovability?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">Either God doesnt exist and there doesnt exist this right or one of the religions is correct and the divine right is not correct to any of those to my knowledge.
</font>

Just curious as to what makes you so sure that YOU'RE religion is right, and all others are wrong? Do you have some sort of evidence pointing to members of your religion as being smarter than everyone else? Is there some other reason?

The point being that even if you are right and a god exists, how is it that you can be 100% certain that your religion is correct over all others? This is yet another aspect which points to stupidity, cuz any half-way intelligent person should be able to easily deduce that the odds CAN'T be 100%! They're not even CLOSE to 100%. Which means you are more likely to be worshipping the WRONG religion than the correct one!

You can get out of the "stupid club" by the way, by simplyy acknowledging that you understand this, but are willing to take your chances that religion "A" is the one true one. That would be fine. But saying that you are 100% certain that believing in Jesus' divinity is a must prerequisite for not going to hell IS dumb, I'm afraid to say.

[Skidoo]

Whether it is "trivially obvious" or not is irrelevant. It's enough to prove my earlier statement.

[Carded]

I disagree. I do not believe justice requires God to offer anyone salvation. Offering salvation was a generous act.

Who and where are these ‘smart’ people who have “Analyzed all the evidence dispassionately” and where are the reports they have written?

[runner4life7]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Either God doesnt exist and there doesnt exist this right or one of the religions is correct and the divine right is not correct to any of those to my knowledge.
</font>

Just curious as to what makes you so sure that YOU'RE religion is right, and all others are wrong? Do you have some sort of evidence pointing to members of your religion as being smarter than everyone else? Is there some other reason?

The point being that even if you are right and a god exists, how is it that you can be 100% certain that your religion is correct over all others? This is yet another aspect which points to stupidity, cuz any half-way intelligent person should be able to easily deduce that the odds CAN'T be 100%! They're not even CLOSE to 100%. Which means you are more likely to be worshipping the WRONG religion than the correct one!

You can get out of the "stupid club" by the way, by simplyy acknowledging that you understand this, but are willing to take your chances that religion "A" is the one true one. That would be fine. But saying that you are 100% certain that believing in Jesus' divinity is a must prerequisite for not going to hell IS dumb, I'm afraid to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you are referring to the comment you quoted because that doesnt make any sense, but part of faith is fully believing that mine is correct, otherwise I would have a rather weak faith. I'm not saying it makes me better than anyone by any means, just that I do believe my religion is 100% correct and must believe the others are wrong.

Your analysis is terrible btw. Thankfully there have been some very intelligent atheists on this forum, otherwise I'd be forced to think they are all as dumb as the select few of you guys.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
If God is just and God requires belief, with no exceptions, to avoid hell, then it means that the objective evidence is clear and persuasive.

[/ QUOTE ] That's not the refutation, IMO, because it is met by the perennial claim of Christians that "God is testing our belief". See the Abraham tale for the whole enchilada on this. (I'd claim that anyone who wants to argue against the literal interpretation of Christian religion should wrestle with the Abraham tale first - and win. You can go Greco-Roman.)

The appopriate argument begins with the concept of knowing enough, which also touches upon the issue of Martian infidels or those Polynesians who never heard of Galilee, Magdalene or Seraphim. In other words, how are we presumed to be saved and go to heaven if we do not believe the Lord's Resurrection on account that we have not learned enough (and not through our fault) to have our belief steered towards accepting the Lord's Resurrection as gospel truth?

We get aluminium siding salesmen knocking on our door every other day and God should know that.