New Fight Question

[kdotsky]

[ QUOTE ]

Good try though. Don't let the facts stand in the way of arguing against something nobody said.

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What facts. Every piece of hard evidence out there indicates that the MMA fighter would destroy a boxer.

[MuresanForMVP]

FTW

[Smasharoo]

What facts. Every piece of hard evidence out there indicates that the MMA fighter would destroy a boxer.

Actually the opposite is true.

All together now...

Do you see why?

[Blarg]

I'm going to take an opposite tack from both sides. There IS no hard evidence out there because nobody even close to a top boxer has ever been in UFC, Pride, what-not, and none with a brain in his head ever would. The money is just not there; however, the risk of damaging his public image is. So you have nothing on the positive side and keep all the negatives -- who wants that kind of a deal? Only a moron.

It would be very interesting if one day a top boxer spent say a couple years at least learning the ground game and take-down prevention, and then tried it out. Until then, we'll be talking about this stuff from a pretty shaky basis.

[Smasharoo]

There IS no hard evidence out there because nobody even close to a top boxer has ever been in UFC, Pride, what-not, and none with a brain in his head ever would. The money is just not there

That is the hard evidence. Cold, hard, cash.

[Zim]

It can also be argued, however, that there has never been a top athlete in the UFC, Pride, what-not. It is getting better now, of course, but if we look at the greatest fighters in the MMA competitions ... most, by and large, are NOT world class athletes. And even if they were in the past, they are not currently.

Even the best conditioned athletes in Pride, such as Mirko Crocop or Fedor, don't have the natural attributes of say a Lennox Lewis, or a Roy Jones.

(My apologies for the dated references)

Actually, Fedor looks downright unconditioned with his love handles, lol. But good god can that boy fight ...

Anyway, if the argument here is whether an elite athlete with limited techniques can defeat an amateur ruffian brawler, we should default to evidence in lieu of argument. And where no exact evidence exists, we should use what evidence we do have. Science is about making the best guess given what we know, yes?

Here is what we know:

1) The only elite boxer who has ever competed in MMA, was Ali. See above clip.
1) No other elite boxer has ever stepped into an MMA competition.
2) All other boxers who have tried have gotten their asses handed to them.

***

Hold on ... just did a quick search. I was wrong. There have been top level boxers vs MMA'ers. Here's a match between Milo Savage and "Judo" Gene Lebell, circa 1954:

Can A Professional Boxer Beat a Judo Expert?

In the August 1963 issue of Rogue magazine, a magazine of national distribution, an article appeared entitled, "The Judo Bums". The article, written by Jim Beck, added fresh fuel to one of sports enduring and smoldering controversies: whether a judoka could beat a boxer or vice versa. Although impromptu matches have been held occasionally between a boxer and a judoka, none has been held (to the author's knowledge) under specific rules and conditions or between a ranking professional boxer and a ranking judoka. Beck's article, therefore, brought to a culmination the controversy that has raged for years as to which sport is the superior form of self defense.
Beck made some of the following acerb comments on judo: "Judo . . . is a complete fraud . . . Every judo man I've ever met was a braggart and a show off . . . Any boxer can beat a judo man." Beck then described an alleged fight between himself and a judoka in which he, Beck, naturally prevails using boxing. The author met Beck. He stands approximately 6'9'' and weighs about 155 pounds. And he is no Rocky Graziano.

OFFERED $1,000
In concluding Beck proposed a contest between a judoka and himself ?? . . . no, but a boxer of a caliber of Gene Fullmer. His parting comments were, "Judo bums hear me one and all! It is one thing to fracture pine boards, bricks, and assorted inanimate objects (here, he's confused between the sports), but quite another to climb into a ring with a trained and less cooperative target. My money is ready ( Beck offered $1,000 to any winning judoka). Where are the takers?"
A judoka brought the article to the attention of Gene LeBell. LeBell promptly contacted Beck through Rogue magazine and offered to meet any boxer Beck selected. Gene, the 1954 and 1955 National AAU Judo Champion, was free to meet a professional boxer because of his semi-professional standing. He owns and operates his own judo school in Hollywood, California. Other judokas would lose their amateur standing if they fought a professional boxer.


1st Round: Start of fight.
CONTRACT WAS PREPARED
After much vacillating on the part of Beck a contract was prepared by the author which set forth the following specific rules: the fight is scheduled for five rounds, three minutes per round. The boxer will wear a judo-gi top (Judo robe) and a belt. He can also wear boxing trunks, boxing shoes, and to his great advantage —use unweighed speed bag gloves which completely cover his hands. He can apply any legitimate punch and hit in any circumstance. He will not be curtailed by NBA rules. Gene, the judoka, will wear his judo-gi, no shoes, and no gloves. He can apply any recognized judo or karate technique except the karate kick. A winner will be declared under the following conditions: when his opponent is disabled or is counted out for ten seconds. A referee will be the sole judge.

MILO SAVAGE
Beck selected Milo Savage, a high ranking middleweight. Savage had been fighting professionally since 1945. He had beaten such fighters as Holly Mims, Moses Ward, and Bobby Boyd. He lost two close decisions to former champion Gene Fullmer. He won his last eight fights, six by knockouts and was negotiating to meet champion Dick Tiger. Savage therefore seemed to be a true representative for boxing.

The match was set for December 2, 1963 at the Fair Grounds in Salt Lake City, Utah, Beck's and Savage's home town. On the night of the fight, contrary to the rules agreed and set forth in the contract. Savage wore a short, tight karate-gi given to him by Beck who answered that he did not know the difference between a judo-gi and a karate-gi. Savage also wore a pair of unusual, speed bag gloves. There was a metal or plastic plate under the leather running from the knuckles to the wrist and to the tip of the thumb. His fingers were not covered. It was potentially a lethal weapon. Savage, who proved to be a great competitor, asserted that he would fight LeBell in an overcoat if necessary. But Beck and Savage's manager insisted on the gloves and the karate-gi. Gene nevertheless consented to fight him under those conditions.
A large partisan crowd was present including Salt Lake's favorite fighting brothers, Gene, Jay, and Don Fullmer.

ROUND ONE
Savage and Gene moved cautiously toward each other. During the entire fight Savage never extended his arms except to throw his fast powerful punches. He maintained perfect balance and refused to rush the judoka. Instead he moved cautiously throwing jabs with those deadly gloves. Just before the round ended, Gene managed to grab Savage's short jacket but the boxer was able to jerk away. In the engagement Gene pulled his left shoulder, an old contest injury he had reinjured a few weeks earlier.

ROUND TWO
Realizing that he could apply only a limited number of techniques because of his "bum" shoulder, LeBell's strategy was to set Savage up for a "front choke". He succeeded to flip the boxer with a "corner throw" and immediately straddled him. Savage kept punching and finally managed to put his legs into Gene's trying to break the hold. But Savage's effort was futile. LeBell would not relax. Meanwhile LeBell kept maneuvering for a better position, but the bell rang before he could end the contest. It was easily noticeable that Savage was able to elude the judoist because of his powerful strength and fighting instinct.

ROUND THREE
Savage threw a perfect left jab and a right-cross. The right just grazed Gene as he ducked. And both men crashed into the ropes. Gene attempted a "standing front choke" but Savage quickly attacked his opponent's body and slipped away from the grip. Gene then grabbed Savage for a "hip throw" but the boxer ceased punching and grabbed Gene's leg—thereby, preventing the judoka to move in for the throw. At that moment Savage tried a "foot sweep". It only jammed Gene's foot but the movement undoubtedly revealed that Savage must have had some judo instruction before the fight. The author also noticed that several times the boxer had attempted to ward off the judo expert with "jigoti"(judo defensive position).

ROUND FOUR
Savage leaned against the ropes and compelled Gene to come to him. Gene moved under Savage's jabs and managed to throw Savage with a spectacular left sided "maki hard goshi". He quickly followed with a "neck choke." In a few seconds the boxer was "out cold". The choke was what Gene wanted to use. He explained that he had several opportunities to apply an arm-bar but fear that he might seriously disable Savage. He wanted to prove that judo could be effective without maiming the other party.

RIOT WAS AVERTED
Throughout the contest the partisan crowd continuously screamed mercilessly, "C'mon Milo, knock him out!" "Put the red-head away!" "Smash him !" But when Gene LeBell quickly ended the bout and effectively vanquished their idol, the crowds became violent. They threw bottles, paper cups, and other debris into the ring. Fortunately quick-thinking Jay Fullmer climbed into the ring to congratulate LeBell, thereby averting a riot.

Throughout the bout Savage was not able to land a devastating blow. His most effective punches were to Gene's body but they were not crinoline.

THE FUTURE ?
What about the future, will there be more bouts ? Most likely. There will more Becks along the way who will not attempt to learn the sports or arts, but will stir controversies between them. But before they open their mouths they should take this advice. Was it Joe Louis who sagely said: "The sport of judo and boxing should never be compared because they are so different. If I were to meet a judo man and hit him first, I'll bury him. But if I don't and he grabs me, he'll bury me."

CONTROVERSY SETTLED ?
It is doubtful whether or not this contest will really settle the controversy between boxing and judo. There will always be those who will say "if" this or that had happened the result would have been different. But perhaps this is the way it should be between the adherents of the two great sports. What was settled on December 2, 1963 was that a ranking professional boxer lost to a ranking judoka under rules which gave each contestant the best possible advantages for the use of his techniques.

***

So there you go.

Best,
Z.

(ps Smash, still love your NL strat. It rocks.)

[kdotsky]

[ QUOTE ]

There IS no hard evidence out there because nobody even close to a top boxer has ever been in UFC, Pride, what-not, and none with a brain in his head ever would. The money is just not there

That is the hard evidence. Cold, hard, cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

All cold hard cash says is that boxing has good marketing and/or that it is entertaining to watch.

[kdotsky]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to take an opposite tack from both sides. There IS no hard evidence out there because nobody even close to a top boxer has ever been in UFC, Pride, what-not, and none with a brain in his head ever would. The money is just not there; however, the risk of damaging his public image is. So you have nothing on the positive side and keep all the negatives -- who wants that kind of a deal? Only a moron.

It would be very interesting if one day a top boxer spent say a couple years at least learning the ground game and take-down prevention, and then tried it out. Until then, we'll be talking about this stuff from a pretty shaky basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say we had proof -- we have evidence. Every professional boxer that has had any sort of interaction with MMA has had his ass handed to him. There have also been professional boxers that have made a decent transition into MMA and stated explicitly that any boxer would get their ass handed to them without training.

There isn't evidence going the other way.

[Blarg]

I didn't say we had proof either. But neither do we have so much as hard evidence. Someone being a "professional" boxer and leaving boxing argues strongly against him being a good one. Why would he want to make markedly less money? Him leaving a profession because he was not good at it makes a lot more sense. And regardless, that yet one more dude makes one more assertion isn't evidence of anything no matter what it is that he says. It's only an anecdote.

This is all going to remain speculation until we get at least a few noted boxers in their prime to fight noted MMA'ers in their prime. I can't foresee that happening anytime soon.

Meanwhile, this is all pretty much mental masturbation.

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say we had proof either. But neither do we have so much as hard evidence. Someone being a "professional" boxer and leaving boxing argues strongly against him being a good one. Why would he want to make markedly less money? Him leaving a profession because he was not good at it makes a lot more sense. And regardless, that yet one more dude makes one more assertion isn't evidence of anything no matter what it is that he says. It's only an anecdote.

This is all going to remain speculation until we get at least a few noted boxers in their prime to fight noted MMA'ers in their prime. I can't foresee that happening anytime soon.

Meanwhile, this is all pretty much mental masturbation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now. See the light. We have found 2 examples of good boxers losing to a grappler.

The first was Ali, the greatest of all time. While you and Smash would likely say this doesn't prove anything as it's guaranteed money and an exhibition, and while that is true, it isn't the point. The point is that Ali's boxing style looked terribly ineffective against a grappler. The grappler had the fight all but ended on the ground.

Then we have the above judo v boxer fight. It was a RANKED boxer. He clearly isn't a boxer who wasn't very good and went looking for greener pastures. The boxer even had some judo training and was much better suited to defend himself than if he had just used the boxing style only and the boxer still lost.

Not once in the limited history we have of boxers fighting MMAers or grapplers do we have a boxer dominating the match or even winning. This is hard evidence and proof.