My Basic Thought On Free Will

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
"Come on David, that´s no proof at all. You can program a computer to wonder and discuss if he has free will."

No you can't. Nor can anybody.

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Why not? You sound pretty definitive for a guy who has not provided any argument for his position.

[David Sklansky]

Because as of yet, no computer "wonders" about anything.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
does not our regret for certain actions prove that we made those choices freely? If we were coerced then we would not regret them methinks.

you know: "Fk! why did I do that?" / "Well you certainly didn't have to moron."

[/ QUOTE ]

But I never regret my regret. Or if so, amazingly rarely. And I CERTAINLY never regret that regret.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Because as of yet, no computer "wonders" about anything.

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Says....you? I mean, certainly you wouldn't argue that I can label a command WONDER and then program a computer to execute it. Where is the line on the gradient from executing that command to what you think you are doing when you wonder about things?

[NNNNOOOOONAN]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of people ask me about this. Do humans have free will?

Well if you are going to discuss this question rigorously, it is imperative that you define what you mean by "free will" in very precise technical terms. On the other hand, even though it might be very difficult to come up with this technical, precise definition, the fact is that free will is a lot like what pornography was to that judge. "I know it when I see it".

I'm pretty sure that I have the jist of a proof that free will exists. Intuitively I am almost certain of it. But to turn this general idea into a rigorous proof would probably require a Godel type logician. Mere hi fallooin philosophers are probably not smart enough. I might be able to do it myself but I have got a poker tournament to deal with.

Anyway, it seems to me that somewhere out there in logicland, a proof of free will can be constructed from the simple fact that PEOPLE WONDER (AND DISCUSS) WHETHER THEY HAVE FREE WILL.

If Bertrand Russell were alive, I am almost sure he could elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[thechainsaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lots of people ask me about this. Do humans have free will?

Well if you are going to discuss this question rigorously, it is imperative that you define what you mean by "free will" in very precise technical terms. On the other hand, even though it might be very difficult to come up with this technical, precise definition, the fact is that free will is a lot like what pornography was to that judge. "I know it when I see it".

I'm pretty sure that I have the jist of a proof that free will exists. Intuitively I am almost certain of it. But to turn this general idea into a rigorous proof would probably require a Godel type logician. Mere hi fallooin philosophers are probably not smart enough. I might be able to do it myself but I have got a poker tournament to deal with.

Anyway, it seems to me that somewhere out there in logicland, a proof of free will can be constructed from the simple fact that PEOPLE WONDER (AND DISCUSS) WHETHER THEY HAVE FREE WILL.

If Bertrand Russell were alive, I am almost sure he could elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

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Interesting that you correct the spelling of the lesser mathematician, and not that of the greater.

Nice question, David.

"Free will" cannot be proven. Counter-example as follows. Assume the world is deterministic, then all our actions are 100% predictable, therefore free will can not exist. QED.

As a side note, the "illusion" of free will can exist. And by the same token, a computer or any finite state machine can be said to have this illusion free of will.

[Fatt Albert]

If something like the movie Groundhog's Day were to actually occur, it would answer the question.

The way it was portrayed in the movie, we do not have free will. That is, everyday every person was in the exact same places and wearing the same clothes etc... This means that these people, presented with the same universe made the same choices every time. Their actions were determined. And as a result it gave Bill Murray the ability to predict the (short-term) future.

If we truly do have free will, then each day people would be in slightly different positions at the beginning of the day, and the end of the day could end with quite different results.

The problem here is that if things end up so differently it could end up proving the other side of the coin. That being that we do not have free will because our actions are random.

[Patrick Sileo]

[quote] Anyway, it seems to me that somewhere out there in logicland, a proof of free will can be constructed from the simple fact that PEOPLE WONDER (AND DISCUSS) WHETHER THEY HAVE FREE WILL.

It seems to me that the premise (in CAPS above) is a bit too strong. Unless one can really get inside another's head, I think we must adopt a more limited starting point:

(A) I WONDER WHETHER I HAVE FREE WILL.
(B) I HAVE HEARD OTHER PEOPLE SAY THAT THEY WONDER WHETHER THEY HAVE FREE WILL.

Perhaps (A) provides a sufficient basis for an argument which I find compelling that I have free will. For the moment, let us take the existence of such an argument as given. How might I extend it to other people?

An initially appealing approach is to assume that because other people look, act, smell, etc. so much like me, they experience existence in the same way I do. (B) reinforces the notion that other people are like me. Since I am convinced of my own free will, they must share this quality. Therefore, people have free will.

I think that David's original assumption is initially accepted by most people because of an implicit similarity argument. Other people tell us they wonder about the same thing. Because they are so similar to us, they must be capable of wondering about the same thing. It is unlikely that they are all lying. Therefore, other people do wonder about the same thing.

What if I want to know if a more differentiated creature has free will? Now things get sticky. Gorillas are in many ways similar to people -- do they have free will? Do all apes and monkeys have free will? All mammals? All animals? Lichen? Aliens land in Washington, D.C. tomorrow -- they have no heads, their bodies contain no carbon, but do contain a large amount of silicon. They look very different from us - might they too have free will? If so, might computers have free will? If so, which computers?

I think there is a more fruitful approach to the issue that at least allows simultaneously for free will and determinism, but I have neither the time nor energy to delve into it now. Perhaps in a later post. As a teaser, I think that the conflict between free will and determinism might be largely rectified through careful consideration of frames of reference.

[malorum]

With the exception of a few fringe idea's like Penrose (Shadows of the mind, Emporers new mind) academic consensus in relation to models of the Physical universe suggest a fundamentallly deterministic universe.

Penrose implicitly suggests that large scale quantum cooherence in the human brain allows for quantum uncertainty to act as an interface for free-will to interact with the physical universe.

Most scientist would agree that this is pseudo-sceintific speculation at best, and more likely misleading nonsense.

None of the widely used physical models of the universe include equations such as E=mc^2+(D) where D is David's next decision.

While the models currently used do place limitations on "predictability", they do not suggest anything other than a fundamentally deterministic universe.

That free-will exists at the level of experience is clear, the rational implication of accepted scientific models is however that experience of free will is simply a phenomenon.

The suggestion is thus that decisions percieved as "free-will" are fundamentally consequential.

Any suggestion to the contrary, indicating that decisions of a "mind" external to the physical system can alter the determistic nature of causal physical relationships, would require a rewriting of accepted scientific models of the physical world.

Your can browse for such attempts on google (quantum consciousness etc.)
I rank them alongside "action flop theory" and "**** poker is rigged".

Good luck

[Patrick Sileo]

I agree with most (perhaps all) of this post. I also think that I have free will. Hmmmm.