two pair on flop, 5NL. passive villian. - Page 2

Losfer · #11 12-14-2006, 12:52 AM

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it is not that he called the all in on the turn, it is that he limp called my preflop raise with a junk hand. A5s is instamuck in my opinion and would only be played from the BB on a free flop. this wasnt even close to a free flop for him, he was OOP, and had VERY marginal holdings to start off with.

saying "well he won didnt he?" is just being results oriented. A5s is going to lose you more money than it will win you, even with a two flush board on the flop.

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I'm not saying "well he won didnt he?". I'm saying that if people are willing the dump there chips of to you when you make the nuts then you should be playing Axs all day long.

He didn't have absolute position, but he had good relative position.

As far as the nut flush draw losing more money than it makes, I'd be very suprised if that were true. Should play it to the end everytime? Probably not. But I suspect it can be played quite profitably.

Quite often I would play it the same way he did.

Grunch · #12 12-14-2006, 01:02 AM

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weak made flushes might fold

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You are fooling yourself.

Preflop is loose. QTo is not a fantastic hand to isolate with. You can't even beat Ace-high. I'm not saying it's a 100% fold, but it is somewhere around a 75% fold. The other 25% are a few isolation plays and a few limps behind. Your main play here shoudl be fold, however.

Losfer · #13 12-14-2006, 01:12 AM

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You are fooling yourself.

Preflop is loose. QTo is not a fantastic hand to isolate with. You can't even beat Ace-high. I'm not saying it's a 100% fold, but it is somewhere around a 75% fold. The other 25% are a few isolation plays and a few limps behind. Your main play here shoudl be fold, however.

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Maybe I do this too much, but I find that if I raise in this spot, a contuation bet on the flop wins qutie often. QT is good enough for me to try it. If it makes a difference I usually play 10NL at Full Tilt.

Grunch · #14 12-14-2006, 01:17 AM

If you are raising to win with a CB, it shouldn't matter what your cards are. Choosing QTo to CB with is missing an important point: when your CB gets called, you don't want to have put yourself in a difficult position. Those are the times when you lose big pots with QTo.

Don't believe me? Go look in PT. Filter all your QT isolation raises, and then sort by 'net'. If you have a DB with a few tens of thousands of hands, you'll see that the biggest pots you lose you got your money in bad. The biggest pots you win were probably suckouts -- after having gotten the money in bad.

Losfer · #15 12-14-2006, 01:22 AM

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If you are raising to win with a CB, it shouldn't matter what your cards are. Choosing QTo to CB with is missing an important point: when your CB gets called, you don't want to have put yourself in a difficult position. Those are the times when you lose big pots with QTo.

Don't believe me? Go look in PT. Filter all your QT isolation raises, and then sort by 'net'. If you have a DB with a few tens of thousands of hands, you'll see that the biggest pots you lose you got your money in bad. The biggest pots you win were probably suckouts -- after having gotten the money in bad.

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I don't have enough hand for PT to useful for me yet, but I see your point.

I want to make sure I understand though. Your not sayin that you want to use a truely awful hand (72x) just one that isn't likely to get you into too much trouble (67s). True?

Grunch · #16 12-14-2006, 01:38 AM

I hope you dont read my post and conclude, "Grunch is telling me I should raise PF and CB flops liberally." That's not what I'm saying. Actually, I'm almost saying the opposite. You should be making this play conservatively -- when you are pretty sure it will work. Sometimes that means raising PF with marginal hands like 76s, but you're not raising your hand. Your raising your situation.

Raise hands that won't put you in a bad situation when you get called on the flop. If you have no hand and no draw, that's not a difficult situation. If you get called on the flop, just quit. If you have no hand but a strong draw, thats not difficult either. Often you'll be making very big bets on the flop, or maybe even just drawing. the decision will usually be clear however. But if you flop a pair of Queens holding QTo and get called, you're in a fairly uncomfortable spot. You're certianly in a spot where your hand is pretty marginal. This is why QTo isn't a great isolation hand.

Sir Winalot · #17 12-14-2006, 04:35 AM

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I don't get the push. What worse hands call?

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All of them.

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What better hands fold?

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Not a single one of them.

Losfer · #18 12-14-2006, 08:31 AM

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I hope you dont read my post and conclude, "Grunch is telling me I should raise PF and CB flops liberally." That's not what I'm saying. Actually, I'm almost saying the opposite. You should be making this play conservatively -- when you are pretty sure it will work. Sometimes that means raising PF with marginal hands like 76s, but you're not raising your hand. Your raising your situation.

Raise hands that won't put you in a bad situation when you get called on the flop. If you have no hand and no draw, that's not a difficult situation. If you get called on the flop, just quit. If you have no hand but a strong draw, thats not difficult either. Often you'll be making very big bets on the flop, or maybe even just drawing. the decision will usually be clear however. But if you flop a pair of Queens holding QTo and get called, you're in a fairly uncomfortable spot. You're certianly in a spot where your hand is pretty marginal. This is why QTo isn't a great isolation hand.

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I'm getting the impression that you think that the hand doesn't matter, and that suprises me.

I can understand not wanting to make this play with a hand like QTo because you could end up with a difficult decision on the flop if you bet and get called. However, it seems like it would be nice to some sort of hand to start out with.

Additionally, when I make this play I'm not making a CB 100% of the time. I like to make that raise so I have that as an option. If I have player behind me that are constantly calling raise I won't do it either. But if the people behind me are fairly tight, I'm in one of the last three seats, only one person has limped in, and I have a hand that I've decided I want to play, then I typically raise. I like to get money in the pot when I have position.

However, if this a potential leak, then I'd like to stop it now. I'd say I make this play about once every two or three orbits. Does this seem like it's too often? What conditions do you look for when you make this play?

Thanks.

Bonesy · #19 12-14-2006, 09:29 AM

No need to make such a big bet on the turn. Your hand is a bluff at this point with a redraw to a straight flush or 3rd nut flush. Even vs a passive opponent, I highly doubt you are folding a better hand, maybe the dumb end of a straight. I may just check the turn.

Bonesy · #20 12-14-2006, 09:32 AM

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I don't get the push. What worse hands call? What better hands fold?

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weak made flushes might fold, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x might fold, K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x might fold. i also had open ended straight flush draw which i just now noticed. either way, he checked to me twice and i wanted him to pay if he was still on the draw with a single high club or straight draw hoping to hit, also with the possibility of me being able to complete the flush and have 3rd nuts.

that's my thinking anyway, maybe flawed.

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Don't know if people were missing this or not but K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] x is never folding. He would have a straight with a redraw to the 2nd nut flush.