two pair on flop, 5NL. passive villian.

tehDiceman · #1 12-13-2006, 08:21 PM

been looking over this hand and was figuring that i was representing the flush. he checked to me on the flop and the turn so i wasnt 100% sure what he was trying to represent, maybe a set or two pair.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($4.97)
Button ($1.04)
SB ($4.89)
BB ($2.94)
UTG ($3.03)
UTG+1 ($5.75)
MP1 ($15.28)
MP2 ($3.47)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08.

Flop: ($0.31) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.3, BB folds, MP2 calls $0.30.

Turn: ($0.91) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $3.14, MP2 calls $3.07 (All-In).

River: ($7.12) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $7.12

Kmon · #2 12-13-2006, 08:25 PM

I'm think villain has ak preflop. Maybe a mid-high pocket pair. Your raise of 5x bb puts him on a decent hand preflop, any history of his play or how ur looked at?

tehDiceman · #3 12-13-2006, 10:54 PM

no real history of his play, in fact, most of the players i have been playing with in the past few days are all relative unknowns. none of the regulars, although that may be my table selection now.

im probably looked at as a semi nit/tight aggressive. i hadnt played tons of hands and when i did, i was betting out big on most streets.

Losfer · #4 12-13-2006, 11:00 PM

I don't get the push. What worse hands call? What better hands fold?

tehDiceman · #5 12-13-2006, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the push. What worse hands call? What better hands fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

weak made flushes might fold, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x might fold, K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x might fold. i also had open ended straight flush draw which i just now noticed. either way, he checked to me twice and i wanted him to pay if he was still on the draw with a single high club or straight draw hoping to hit, also with the possibility of me being able to complete the flush and have 3rd nuts.

that's my thinking anyway, maybe flawed.

Losfer · #6 12-13-2006, 11:39 PM

You might get a small flush to fold, but they don't have to call that often for your push to be wrong (I didn't do the math).

A and K of clubs would probably fold, but you actually want them to call.

Take your free card and see what happens. If he already has the flush and you make a FH or SF, you might stack him.

I just think that board is scarry for your hand.

tehDiceman · #7 12-13-2006, 11:44 PM

scary yes, he turned over A5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. flush made, game over, he wasnt folding.

to the statement above about him calling my preflop raise and him being strong, hardly. lucky donk.

Losfer · #8 12-14-2006, 12:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
scary yes, he turned over A5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. flush made, game over, he wasnt folding.

to the statement above about him calling my preflop raise and him being strong, hardly. lucky donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are willing to get it all-in when I make the nuts, I'd call you with Axs. Especially since the bb called and I'm closing the action. I have no problem with any thing that the villian did. Could be that I'm a donk though.

tehDiceman · #9 12-14-2006, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
scary yes, he turned over A5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. flush made, game over, he wasnt folding.

to the statement above about him calling my preflop raise and him being strong, hardly. lucky donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are willing to get it all-in when I make the nuts, I'd call you with Axs. Especially since the bb called and I'm closing the action. I have no problem with any thing that the villian did. Could be that I'm a donk though.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is not that he called the all in on the turn, it is that he limp called my preflop raise with a junk hand. A5s is instamuck in my opinion and would only be played from the BB on a free flop. this wasnt even close to a free flop for him, he was OOP, and had VERY marginal holdings to start off with.

saying "well he won didnt he?" is just being results oriented. A5s is going to lose you more money than it will win you, even with a two flush board on the flop.

Archon_Wing · #10 12-14-2006, 12:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the push. What worse hands call? What better hands fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

weak made flushes might fold, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x might fold, K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x might fold. i also had open ended straight flush draw which i just now noticed. either way, he checked to me twice and i wanted him to pay if he was still on the draw with a single high club or straight draw hoping to hit, also with the possibility of me being able to complete the flush and have 3rd nuts.

that's my thinking anyway, maybe flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

A small flush will not fold on this board especially with the straight possbility. You don't really want the Ace [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to fold. A pot sized bet will deny them the odds to draw. Sometimes, you don't need to push them out of the pot as long as you deny them the correct odds. Yes, you can get outdrawn, but you lose a lot of value by overbetting. It's along the same line of reasoning why we don't push AA preflop-- we do want them to call, but at a poor price. In this case overbetting can only cause us to pay off villian's made hand. Most of the time though, a full pot bet will accomplish the same thing as an overbet if you do want to force people out. Well yea, I do know this is 5 nl, but people are generally pretty black and white about their hands. Either they'll go for it or they won't.

I'd probaly bet around .60 on the turn or maybe check to peel one off to the full house depending on mood. It doesn't look too great here, so I'd probaly be inclined to check.