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#11
12-13-2006, 04:15 PM
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Re: 4/180 PS Did I play this correctly?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Okay, maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but I believe the main issue here is pot size control. This pot is HUGE after the raise on the flop. You need a big hand to play a big pot. You also can't assume that just because "lots of players play badly in the beginning of tourneys" that this is that case. Unless you have a solid read on the player, you need to not get involved early in a big pot with a lot of BBs still in your stack. I think the raise on the flop is "barely acceptable," but after that I would check the turn and keep the pot small. If he made further bets, I'd probably let the hand go. [/ QUOTE ] You would be better off not listening to this. If you aren't trying to pump the pot w/ TP2K when no one showed strength PF then you are playing the wrong game. Reraising the pot is standard and mandatory, and I may even raise even more. Not open pushing the turn was a mistake. Waiting for premium cards with premium flops in a tournament will get you about a 0% ROI, while it has more variance, getting aggressive and playing to win the whole tournament, whether it's the beginning or late in the tournament, will win you more $ in the end. Geoff, read the anthology and other posters and you'll soon realize why your suggestion is bad. [/ QUOTE ] This is fairly insulting and I feel compelled to defend myself and my opinion a little bit. 0% ROI? This is the beginning of a tournament, first level at Stars, if I'm not mistaken. I play that round with M of ~ 50 like I would play a cash game. If you play a positive cash game, you come out with more chips than you went in with. If you mean 0% ROI if this is later on in the tournament, then it's understandable, but I hope you aren't implying that's what I have. Read the anthology? Done that several times. I looked again and a thread on controlling the size of the pot jumped off the page. I'm sure what you're referring to is the threads about taking small edges early. What makes you so sure that this is a small edge and that you're not behind? You know nothing about the opponent except that he is in a $4 tourney. If you're a decent player playing against him in a $4 tourney, how do you know what he will and will not be commiting chips to the pot with? No one showed strength PF, okay, but I wouldn't have been worried about AK either. I'm talking about two pairs with crappy cards, or even a baby set. You think this is a small edge and I don't, that is our main difference in opinion, but I don't think you need to go insulting me about my advice when it's sound advice that several name pros would advocate (that's where I learned it from). 
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#13
12-13-2006, 05:30 PM
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Re: 4/180 PS Did I play this correctly?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Okay, maybe I'm missing the whole point here, but I believe the main issue here is pot size control. This pot is HUGE after the raise on the flop. You need a big hand to play a big pot. You also can't assume that just because "lots of players play badly in the beginning of tourneys" that this is that case. Unless you have a solid read on the player, you need to not get involved early in a big pot with a lot of BBs still in your stack. I think the raise on the flop is "barely acceptable," but after that I would check the turn and keep the pot small. If he made further bets, I'd probably let the hand go. [/ QUOTE ] You would be better off not listening to this. If you aren't trying to pump the pot w/ TP2K when no one showed strength PF then you are playing the wrong game. Reraising the pot is standard and mandatory, and I may even raise even more. Not open pushing the turn was a mistake. Waiting for premium cards with premium flops in a tournament will get you about a 0% ROI, while it has more variance, getting aggressive and playing to win the whole tournament, whether it's the beginning or late in the tournament, will win you more $ in the end. Geoff, read the anthology and other posters and you'll soon realize why your suggestion is bad. [/ QUOTE ] This is fairly insulting and I feel compelled to defend myself and my opinion a little bit. 0% ROI? This is the beginning of a tournament, first level at Stars, if I'm not mistaken. I play that round with M of ~ 50 like I would play a cash game. If you play a positive cash game, you come out with more chips than you went in with. If you mean 0% ROI if this is later on in the tournament, then it's understandable, but I hope you aren't implying that's what I have. Read the anthology? Done that several times. I looked again and a thread on controlling the size of the pot jumped off the page. I'm sure what you're referring to is the threads about taking small edges early. What makes you so sure that this is a small edge and that you're not behind? You know nothing about the opponent except that he is in a $4 tourney. If you're a decent player playing against him in a $4 tourney, how do you know what he will and will not be commiting chips to the pot with? No one showed strength PF, okay, but I wouldn't have been worried about AK either. I'm talking about two pairs with crappy cards, or even a baby set. You think this is a small edge and I don't, that is our main difference in opinion, but I don't think you need to go insulting me about my advice when it's sound advice that several name pros would advocate (that's where I learned it from). [/ QUOTE ] We have TP2K, it's early in the tournament and the goal of the tournament is to accumulate ALL the chips. This is not a cash game and playing even the early rounds like a cash game is WAYYY too tight. That being said, you think we should fold because you think we are behind. Well, I say we are ahead of his range way more often than behind it. He could have a baby set or a random 2 pr (KT is the only reasonable one), but not exploiting the fact that a lot of $4 players will go broke w/ TPNK because 'it's our tournament life' is retarded. We are behind exactly two limping hands KT & 33 and I largely discount others. I expect to be ahead here 80% of the time.... Your whole argument is that you are scared of aggression which is why pushing these hands is so profitable in tournaments. This is NOT a cash game. We don't have the luxury of just dumping this in the hopes we can get that back later. Also, playing to come out w/ more chips than you came in with is cash game mentality. Those chips are out there for the taking now, not later. Even if we finish the first hour 'ahead' it doesn't mean we are sitting well and blinds are increasing. But by all means, keep folding, I'll keep pushing. What a case of MUTBS.
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#15
12-13-2006, 05:52 PM
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Re: 4/180 PS Did I play this correctly?
In the 10/20 blinds (of a 4.40 SnG), I am not trying to build a huge pot with top pair good kicker. BUT, I realize there is a school of thought that you should go big early, or bust and play another. If you're in that school of thought, then you didn't really do much wrong (coulda got more aggro). But, if you don't see the necessity in building huge pots early in the 10/20, then you violated one of your own rules, and probably could have gotten off the hand.
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