99 facing large bet

[Geoff Lightning]

Ugh, I'm sick of everyone saying "You can't push here M of 10, and I think I remember Harrington saying...."
Here:
"In the Orange Zone [10-5 M], you'll often need to consider opening the pot with an all-in move. These moves put exceptional pressure on your opponents...In the Orange Zone, you mostly need to conserve your chips, saving them for big moves that could double your stack."

Is that good enough to convince you other guys that you can't fold 99 here, but you really can't play it after the flop, either?

[fouf1974]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, I'm sick of everyone saying "You can't push here M of 10, and I think I remember Harrington saying...."
Here:
"In the Orange Zone [10-5 M], you'll often need to consider opening the pot with an all-in move. These moves put exceptional pressure on your opponents...In the Orange Zone, you mostly need to conserve your chips, saving them for big moves that could double your stack."

Is that good enough to convince you other guys that you can't fold 99 here, but you really can't play it after the flop, either?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Harrington's book are amazing, but they are just one point of view. There are many ways to play a poker hand. I was just mentionning it because Soulman talked about M.

2. If you raise 250 and one guy in the button calls you, the pot is 50+100+250+250=650 and you have 1200 left. What the hell are you talking about when you say you can't play it after the flop? You almost have 2 time the pot here, you can do whatever you want, and you can even push Allin on the flop and have enough flod equity.

Once again, i think if you have less than 1000 the Allin play is good. With 1450 i think it's bad. You will only win 150 if you steal the blinds, or be allin in a pot where in the best case, it's a coin flip. I think it's bad. I think it's ok to RERAISE Allin if someone has already opened the pot, but not open the pot Allin.

[Soulman]

fouf,

you realize you have no FE if you reraise AI in response to a raise (typical pot will be blinds+300+900+ your final 1150 = 2350 (depending on who raised), giving villain over 4:1 odds)? A reraise shouldn't have a much wider range either, given that you're getting almost 2:1 to call an AI reraise.

To be honest, your posts seem to indicate that you're a bit weak-tight, like many new posters are. I don't know if that's the case, but there you have it.

[Elverian]

Completely agree - the PF raise is too big

[Geoff Lightning]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Harrington's book are amazing, but they are just one point of view. There are many ways to play a poker hand. I was just mentionning it because Soulman talked about M.

2. If you raise 250 and one guy in the button calls you, the pot is 50+100+250+250=650 and you have 1200 left. What the hell are you talking about when you say you can't play it after the flop? You almost have 2 time the pot here, you can do whatever you want, and you can even push Allin on the flop and have enough flod equity.

Once again, i think if you have less than 1000 the Allin play is good. With 1450 i think it's bad. You will only win 150 if you steal the blinds, or be allin in a pot where in the best case, it's a coin flip. I think it's bad. I think it's ok to RERAISE Allin if someone has already opened the pot, but not open the pot Allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not advocating opening with every playable hand here, but 99 is the kind of hand where it's usually good PF but there are very few flops that you want to see. Sure you have twice the pot if you 3xBB raise, but if you're not trying to flop a set, how do you play a pair? Push the flop no matter what? Push if no ace? How would you play it if the pot was half the size of your stack? There's one way to play small pairs with many chips, and another way to play them with few chips.

[ QUOTE ]
Even Harrington says you should wait for a M closer to 5. That's exactly what i'd do.

[/ QUOTE ]
M closer to 5 to push with weak hands. 99 is not a weak hand.

[ QUOTE ]
To me, going Allin with 14BB is like giving up. You are just affraid to be outplayed after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am very afraid of being outplayed after the flop. You can't play optimally as a shortstack after the flop, especially with 99. Either your opponent completely surrenders, or you're all in anyway. I guess you get to decide what kind of flop you call your all in with, but that doesn't usually help too much.

The moral of the story is don't be afraid to put chips into the pot, and if you don't have much room to operate after the flop, you should just go all in then. I guess we have different ideas, but I don't feel comfortable at all seeing a flop with 99 with only twice the pot in my stack.

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
2. If you raise 250 and one guy in the button calls you, the pot is 50+100+250+250=650 and you have 1200 left. What the hell are you talking about when you say you can't play it after the flop? You almost have 2 time the pot here, you can do whatever you want, and you can even push Allin on the flop and have enough flod equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
Note that you can't really bet a reasonable amount and lay it down on the flop - betting say 350 + 250 = 600, almost half your stack as a shorty. Not acceptable.

[rppkoz]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not advocating opening with every playable hand here, but 99 is the kind of hand where it's usually good PF but there are very few flops that you want to see. Sure you have twice the pot if you 3xBB raise, but if you're not trying to flop a set, how do you play a pair? Push the flop no matter what? Push if no ace? How would you play it if the pot was half the size of your stack? There's one way to play small pairs with many chips, and another way to play them with few chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you should be taking a less EV line to prevent from making tougher decisions on later streets. Poker is not concrete, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions based on bet sizes/reads on opponents, and in this case, live tells.

[fouf1974]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. If you raise 250 and one guy in the button calls you, the pot is 50+100+250+250=650 and you have 1200 left. What the hell are you talking about when you say you can't play it after the flop? You almost have 2 time the pot here, you can do whatever you want, and you can even push Allin on the flop and have enough flod equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
Note that you can't really bet a reasonable amount and lay it down on the flop - betting say 350 + 250 = 600, almost half your stack as a shorty. Not acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
fouf,

you realize you have no FE if you reraise AI in response to a raise (typical pot will be blinds+300+900+ your final 1150 = 2350 (depending on who raised), giving villain over 4:1 odds)? A reraise shouldn't have a much wider range either, given that you're getting almost 2:1 to call an AI reraise.

To be honest, your posts seem to indicate that you're a bit weak-tight, like many new posters are. I don't know if that's the case, but there you have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Oh boy, you are something, soulman. You perfectly got me, i'm weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
If not willing to put all my chips in when i know that if i get called i will be an underdog is weak tight, then my friend i'm weak tight.
Please don't assume that only because i don't have your post numbers, i'm a beginning player, that's a little arrogant, you know.

Back to the hand, i don't know what the hell you are talking about. I never said that you should reraise someone that reraised you, i said that if the hand played differently and you were in late position after a early position raiser, it would be right to reraise allin.

You know when i was a beginning player, i read all the Harrington' book and played EXACTLY like he said. Well the truth is i played like i thought he said. I used to make these kind of plays, going Allin with 10 to 15 BB remaining. And you know what, either i picked up the blinds and it changed nothing to my status in the tournament, either i get called and lost to a bigger hand.

I think that you are just like that. You think that everything that is written in this book is the absolute truth. But there no one right way to play a hand. You have to remember that when you want to talk about a poker hand, the right answer is often : "it depends". So i think you are just missing one big thing here : you have to think. HOH is not a recipe that you just to follow without thinking. Allin moves like that are for beginners, because then you don't have to make difficult decisions. If you want to be a thinking player, then don't give up your edge, put yourself in a position where your good poker skills will get you chips. For example, i'm not saying that if you raise, and someone reraise you Allin, you should ALWAYS fold. The guy in the hand described the reraiser as a standard tight player so i think he should fold. But this is a very loose player who could make this move with something like a weak ace, then OK call. See, "it depends".

Back to HOH, if you read the chapter about "Orange Zone" play, Harrington also write that your primary goal is to try to double up. Well i don't think going Allin for 14BB is the way to go then. 99 is a good hand, it's a hand that you should try to double up with, not just pick up the blinds! You can pick up the blinds with 72o if you want.

So OK, 99 is tricky to play after the flop. But if we want to get better at this game, we have to learn to play tricky hand. Picking up the blinds changes nothing, doubling up with this hand, should be our goal.

And one last thing, about the odds thing on the flop. I don't agree with that. Tournament are not cash game. I will happily fold on the flop with 1:4 odds if i'm 99% sure i'm beat. I'd rather fold, keep 5 or 6 BB, and try to double up later by picking a good spot. That's tournament play.

[Soulman]

fouf,

I read the first paragraph of your post then didn't bother with the rest. If I read some posts by a new poster and see a few glaring holes, I assume he's like most new posters.

When you join a forum and don't have too many posts, it's a good idea not to be all cocky and arrogant, an attitude you've certainly displayed so far. It is of course possible you are a very good player who just recently wanted to join 2+2, but how are the forum regulars to know? Especially when you make some weak posts. Chill out and grow thicker hide.

[fouf1974]

[ QUOTE ]
fouf,

I read the first paragraph of your post then didn't bother with the rest. If I read some posts by a new poster and see a few glaring holes, I assume he's like most new posters.

When you join a forum and don't have too many posts, it's a good idea not to be all cocky and arrogant, an attitude you've certainly displayed so far. It is of course possible you are a very good player who just recently wanted to join 2+2, but how are the forum regulars to know? Especially when you make some weak posts. Chill out and grow thicker hide.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK Soulman, you win.
I'm not sure if i'm the one who is cocky and arrogant. If you read my post, i really tried to talk about poker and your only answers are "you are really really really really really really bad, dude. Harrington says on page 185 you should push with 99, so you should push, or you are just a weak-tight beginner".

I should have known, how can i compete with a man who has 1478 post on this forum? Can i get your picture?
Maybe instead of judging someone's post by his post numbers, you can actually think about the poker content, because that's what this forum is all about, not about people who thinks they can rule the forum just because they have good post numbers. 1400 is not even a big number, and you consider yourself a "regular". Well you can be a regular and just suck at poker.

But you know what, i'm going to write 1500 posts with just "Dude, you are really really really really really really bad". Then i'll come back and we can rule the forum together, and never make any interesting poker related comment. That will be awesome.


PS : Can we stop this stupid discussion, be nice and make friend, and talk about poker. I'm sorry if i offended you, that was not my purpose. Maybe you should think about being more polite too.

Now i'd like to have other opinions about this hand. What do you guys do with 99 in EP or MP and 14BB?