Poker Quiz: What Is Your Range Here

[gehrig]

because i cant read, when i first read this i thought this was how ur 3bet range changes from co open when ur on the button to co open when the sb calls

3bet more in the bb there holla

[Silverback]

Case A is HU
Case B is 3 way

Correct?

I'll play more hands HU than in a 3 way pot.

[Rev. Good Will]

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Case A is HU
Case B is 3 way

Correct?

I'll play more hands HU than in a 3 way pot.

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but HU you get 1:3.5 + be OOP the whole hand, and 3way you will get 1:5 + be in MP in a field of 3...

I am playing a CRAPLOAD of hands if SB CC's, even more than a crapload if SB is a donk

[joker122]

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I actually picked the same amount but that not exactly what I meant. I would call a few hands like big little in case A. But would also call 56 for example in case two. So overall about the same amount of hands.

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[Silverback]

I might defend hands like Q8,J8,T8,T6s, but I'll fold them 3 way.

[Scary_Tiger]

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choice 1 not close

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[DING-DONG YO]

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choice 1 not close

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[PokrLikeItsProse]

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I don't really see how this is a question. A fish limping is giving you way more odds to play any hand, so there should be no other answer than choice #1?

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One, the fish isn't limping, he's cold calling a raise in the small blind.

Two, even though you have better pot odds, you have lower odds of making the best hand.

Three, while the CO may be stealing here, the SB calling means that you lose much of your potential for winning this pot on a bluff.

[StellarWind]

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I might defend hands like Q8,J8,T8,T6s, but I'll fold them 3 way.

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This is exactly backwards. Hands that must improve to win are the ones that benefit most from having a third player in the pot. Example:

PFR: AQo
You: T6s

Unless you improve this hand the PFR is going to kill you. He'll either show you his AQ at the end or he'll bet you off your hand. Even if the PFR has 98s you are still a huge favorite to lose unimproved because you can't see his cards.

Now suppose we add in:

SB: two fairly random cards that aren't good enough to 3-bet.

Obviously this doesn't matter if you still have 10-high. There is no penalty for being last instead of merely second best. But suppose you manage to outrun the PFR. At the minimum that's a pair of sixes or tens and quite often you'll need two pair or better because the PFR has also hit his hand. How likely is it that the SB can cope with this? He probably averages one live card to match against your pair. If you have more than one pair he's in real trouble. Plus he is OOP and a bad passive player. Frequently he'll pay you off with an inferior pair or ace high.

You'll make a lot of extra money off the SB even if a pot does go by the wayside once in a while. Plus he exerts a protecting effect on the pot that makes it easier to read the PFR. Relative position rocks--one of the most underrated concepts in poker is the value of putting the field between you and the dangerous player. The BB can play all sorts of things when the raise comes first-in. You have to be much more careful when the PFR raises behind the field even if you read everyone for the same hand ranges.

Finally I'd like to address the bluffing argument. It's true you can win more pots by bluffing if the pot is HU. But the idea is actually to win money and OOP bluffing is not very profitable. You win pots by bluffing but you also lose a lot of extra bets in the process. Overall bluffing is not a big money-maker except against a few opponents. Against most opponents it's just something you do to pick up a little extra money while keeping the game honest. The real money is in making an actual hand and pounding someone with it.

[Silverback]

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Finally I'd like to address the bluffing argument. It's true you can win more pots by bluffing if the pot is HU. But the idea is actually to win money and OOP bluffing is not very profitable. You win pots by bluffing but you also lose a lot of extra bets in the process. Overall bluffing is not a big money-maker except against a few opponents. Against most opponents it's just something you do to pick up a little extra money while keeping the game honest. The real money is in making an actual hand and pounding someone with it.

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Good post Stellarwind, however a couple of questions:

Would you play these hands in a 3 way pot (CO raise, sb call): Q8,J8,T8,T6s,

I personally fold them, now theres a third player in the pot Im even more worried about dominated (or out drawn on a later street)if I do hit a hand.

Maybe a good player can play them, but for me I prefer a fold.

HU against stealers from CO, if I play Q8,J8,T8,T6s I think theres more value in calling then folding so I'll certainly play these. There not hands I would bluff with post flop but if I make a hand or good draw I'll certainly playback at the CO raiser and if they want to pay me off with A high thats up to them. If Im dominated occassionally then so be it.

Also, in your example you used AQ, but theres plenty of hands the CO could be raising that are more on a par with what I would be defending with.

Anyway I would look forward to your reply or anyones elses if my thinking/playing is a little warped.

I think I obviously need to give more thought to what I play in this specific situation:

Can anyone outline what hands they might call in these 2 situations

Case 1 Treat CO raise same as in OP.
Co Raise, Sb calls your in BB

Case 2
CO Raise, Button Cold calls, sb fold, your in BB.

Stellars post sums out the vast difference in these situtations, but personally Ive never given a great deal of thought to the difference in this situations.


Also, if Co is average stealer of say 35%, am I overdefending with hands like Q8,J8,T8,T6s ?