I steal. BB defends.

Burning_K · #1 12-07-2006, 11:19 AM

Villain is 13/9/2 over 150 hands. I can't remember the notes I had on him except he was TAP and seemed to have a clue.

I felt after the hand that my play was not too clever against this player type and that my 'usual' line is to call the ck/r and fold the turn ui if the player is not too tricky.

At the time I thought his call - ck/r could mean many things from a K, 2 or 3, to a hand like QJ, 66, 89s, Ax or whatever believing me to have missed the flop.
The guy was really aggro in general on the flop, esp with top pair or better, and more passive post flop. If he had a K he would cap the flop almost always. He would prob call a 3bet with all the others and call down with a pair, fold if he missed.
There was a lot of blind stealing going on all over the table (which was tight and aggressive) and he probably knew that.

If he called the 3bet I planned to bet/fold turn ui and check/fold river ui.

Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
7 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

...

bbbushu · #2 12-07-2006, 11:30 AM

i'd call the flop bet and fold the turn UI. i'll admit that your line doesn't make much sense to me.

why would a player with a clue have a 2 or a 3 in their hand?

if s/he is as passive as you think, then i guess you might be able to see the turn and river for cheap but this seems a little spewy. if they're on a flush draw, they won't fold to your turn bet, anyways. if they check/raise you a SECOND time on the turn, they could have paired one of their cards drawing to a flush (i guess?) and you're folding in an even bigger pot for one more bet. if they'll call with 66 here they probably won't fold unless the turn and river are very ugly to them. if you think they're semi-bluff check/raising with a FD, why not call and then pop the turn (if they bet at all, which they may not bc of their passivity on the turn and river)?

bbbushu

rjacobs003 · #3 12-07-2006, 11:35 AM

I hate it when this happens. With Kx he may go into call-down mode if you bet into him and and if he's playing Ax ,you don't have a great kicker in hand. Either way or even if he's being aggressive with a lower pair, I wouldn't hand around with more aggression from him if I was UI.

I say bet the turn and fold to a raise and check-fold the river UI.

If an ace turns/rivers I follow the same line expect I check-call the river if he calls my turn bet.

Burning_K · #4 12-07-2006, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd call the flop bet and fold the turn UI. i'll admit that your line doesn't make much sense to me.

why would a player with a clue have a 2 or a 3 in their hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I would tend to do vs a lot of players.
I think you're right that it's a lot less likely villain has a 2 or 3 (unless it was A2/3 and I'm reverse dominated). I think villain's most likely range is Kxs, 22-77ish, Ax, QJ/QT/Q9-7s, JT/J8-Ts, maybe T9s... stuff like that (off the top of my head). I think he's aggro enough to have a stab at this flop which has likely missed me but I felt at the time it could easily have missed him too.

Anyway, I think pokerstove agrees the flop play was bad (if his range is acceptable).

Preflop:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.4541 % 50.54% 05.91% { Ah8c }
Hand 2: 43.5459 % 37.63% 05.91% { 77-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q7s, J8s+, T9s, A9o-A2o, QTo+, JTo }

Flop:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.5310 % 42.20% 04.33% { Ah8c }
Hand 2: 53.4690 % 49.14% 04.33% { 77-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q7s, J8s+, T9s, A9o-A2o, QTo+, JTo }

bozlax · #5 12-07-2006, 12:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...the table...was tight and aggressive...
Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em

[/ QUOTE ]

Find a different table. I'd be very surprised if what you're seeing is good TAG play, it's more likely mis-directed aggression by bad players that will leave you in difficult situations like this one.

kerowo · #6 12-07-2006, 01:20 PM

I would avoid 3-betting with air on steal attempts. Too often steal attempts turn into pissing contests and you just lost 200 hands worth of winnings raising with air. If you think defender is lying call him down, if you think he has you beat count your outs and act accordingly.

Befolder · #7 12-07-2006, 01:31 PM

Grunch.

A player you described here has one of the following hands:

AA (though I would normally figure a 3 bet pf), Kx, 22 or 33, or a flush draw. I don't think he's 3 betting a long ace much unless he just got feisty during this hand.

Call flop raise, fold UI turn. Even if an 8 came, I wouldn't be happy with it, but I might not fold. Though if it were the 8 of diamonds, I might not think it worth seeing the river.

Burning_K · #8 12-07-2006, 01:52 PM

I don't know what he had in the end. An ace came on the turn I bet into him and he folded. It made me wonder about his hand range.
I agree with you lot that it was a mistake to 3bet.

So now what do people reckon he was holding?

Befolder · #9 12-07-2006, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So now what do people reckon he was holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Squadoosh. Apparently it was frisky time...for both of you.
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

marchron · #10 12-07-2006, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what he had in the end. An ace came on the turn I bet into him and he folded. It made me wonder about his hand range.
I agree with you lot that it was a mistake to 3bet.

So now what do people reckon he was holding?

[/ QUOTE ]
A weak Kx.